Chrysanthemum tsuba- I think it is original

[roger dundas]

This is an appeal to those members who might be kind enough to offer their opinion.

Katana size - 78cm.

Another similar but smaller tsuba seen in Gary Murtha's book on Heianjo tsuba (at about 72cm) was considered by Gary Murtha to be of the Momoyama- Azuchi period.

Or could it be later or even modern ?

Also I wondered if it hadn't been lightly treated with wet and dry and then re-darkened. As the pics show there is a filler, a shim in the Nakago Ana which is unlike any other that I have seen being quite neatly positioned with a thin metal of some sort.

Personally I quite like some of these early spoked tsuba, maybe too plain for members who enjoy the enigmatic designs and artitry that many other tsuba might display.

I would welcome any opinions from all you experienced members who care to comment.

Thank you.

Roger j

[Spartancrest]

Hi Roger, are you sure there is a shim? It looks to me [thanks to the new lenses in my eyes] that there are long chisel marks (tagane) to tighten the fit around the nakago of the sword. But to be honest I don't know why a shim wouldn't have been better?  The guard looks good to me but you are probably correct that it has been re-patinated at some time [looks in great condition none the less.] 

[roger dundas]

Thanks for your response Dale- I feel reassured.

As for the so called 'shim', you are again quite correct. I put it to a couple of owners of much sharper eyes than mine and they agree with you- chiseled lines, tagane,  no shim.

I neglected to show the other face- is it called omote ?

Yes, really good condition.

Roger j

[Spartancrest]

Roger there is a lot of overlap in the designs - some are Saotome, others Heianjo and no doubt numerous Shoami versions. How you can tell the school other than if they have inlays eludes me - it might take in-hand experience to say for sure. I found these examples in a few minutes of searching - I can only go on the descriptions given with each image, but bear in mind the people posting them may not be entirely accurate.  You are correct the 'front' face is called omote the rear ura. 

 

[Spartancrest]

Roger. One went through the auction system tonight remarkably like your piece but smaller. [with some sekigane and heavy tagane-ato]

 https://www.jauce.com/auction/p1055486376   They all seem to share a thin elongated hitsu-ana.

 

[Bugyotsuji]

A giant boxed Saotomé with chrysanthemum mimi, 10.6 x 10.8 cm in diameter.

(Placed alongside a normally ‘large’ Tsuba for comparison.)

 

 

[Alex A]

The biggest i ever did see here Piers

 

https://www.shibuiswords.com/tsuba.htm#saotome - tembo

[Bugyotsuji]

Good resource, Alex. Thanks. 
 

[Curran]

Nice example of Saotome you have there Piers.

 

 

[roger dundas]

Thank you all. The reason for doubt of age were the areas of bare metal showing around the seppa dai area and around the rim- not much at all but some bare metal did show through.

Then I got to wondering about somebody using a laser cutter to replicate one of these.

I feel quite reassured now.

As everyone would have noted 78mm and nt 78cm deep.

Roger j

[Spartancrest]

Hi Alex - you should get out more - mine is 112.5 mm x 111 mm - she is 'OLD' and been through a lot but I love her.

I can't imagine just how big the sword would have been. 

 

Not as big as this one. 

 

 

[Alex A]

The surprising thing about those big Saotome, the weight!, understandable should a Samurai have wanted something lighter.

 

Piers, that website has always been a gold mine of information, and wondeful tsuba. 

[Curran]

42 minutes ago, Alex A said:

The surprising thing about those big Saotome, the weight!, understandable should a Samurai have wanted something lighter.

 

Think about when they were made, and the warfare of the period.  Often the nakago ana is large. No kozuka and kogai ana.

 

I've heard the theory before that they were going on large swords.

Maybe what one would call 'horse killers'?  Give one to the biggest guy in every platoon or group of a certain size, and tell him that his job is to fulcrum that long sword through every pair of horse legs that comes near him.

The one Mifune-san was swinging in Seven Samurai has a Gorinto sukashi ko-tosho / ko-katchushi  and the Saotome tsuba sometimes get lumped in the katchushi made tsuba category for relatively well known reasons.

 

 

[zanilu]

Here is one in my collection papered by NBTHK as Saotome.

 

 

Dimensions 92.9 mm x 89.5 mm

 

Regards

Luca

[roger dundas]

Don't we just admire the time, effort and skill these early artisans put into the making of these big Saotome spoked tsuba, getting the segment measurements just right and creating with drills, chisels files and hammers quite an elegant tsuba such as Piers and Luca's pieces show.  Also the Shibuisword lead was welcome as I haven't been able to get into their site for a while.

My tsuba posted at the outset is a poorer relation but I feel,for all that, having a worthiness of its own and fits in with what I have. 

Did I need to say all that ?

Roger j

 

[Spartancrest]

Roger for your records there are two very similar guards to yours - One in the Cleveland Museum of Art [1919.303], and another in the Metropolitan Museum of Art. [36.120.33]

[roger dundas]

That is really interesting Dale and again reassuring to see them in those museums especially the Metropolitan Museum of Art.

Rger j

[Bugyotsuji]

Roger, I’d be very happy to have yours, just as soon as you are tired of it! 

[kissakai]

This is one of mine

 

[Spartancrest]

Why do all these examples have long thin hitsu? 

[kissakai]

I think it is more about being flatter/thinner denoting an older tsuba as the kozuka did not have a high profile

 

[Curran]

All types.

 

 

[roger dundas]

One more question if you would be so kind ?

Shibuiswords (Long) say that their big Saotome tsuba dates to 1400-1450, a smaller example (8cm or so in diameter) to 1550-1600.

It seems to me that Shibuiswords give many of their Tsuba quite early dates. Does anyone here have any opinion on this ?

I quite like the fact that many things about tsuba are still contentious and debatable.

Dale also asked a couple of days ago about the elongated hitsu on these tsuba- again I suppose relating to the school and,or date of these narrow spoked tsuba ? Curran showed one with two different hitsu to muddy the water a bit.

Roger j

[Spartancrest]

Roger I think it is very difficult - nearly impossible IMO - to tell the accurate age of a style of guard made over a four hundred year or longer period. Still more difficult to believe everything a dealer might say in order to get a bigger price. Proof is a scarce commodity, - -  opinions are much more common.

I rather liked Currans example the hitsu were nice and crude - early IMO [but no proof], I wish we had the size? 

[Curran]

15 hours ago, roger dundas said:

 Curran showed one with two different hitsu to muddy the water a bit.

 

Actually, the hitsu ana on mine tell you a lot about when it was made.

And the way of the cutting heavily evidences it was original to the construction, not added later.

 

I haven't looked at and won't comment on Shibuiswords, as the opinions behind it are at least partially Bob Haynes and should be given a LOT of respect.

Even if I differ in opinion here and there, Mr. Haynes opinion is one to which I will always keep an open mind.

He is one person I'll always hesitate to contradict.

[Curran]

8 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

I rather liked Currans example the hitsu were nice and crude - early IMO [but no proof], I wish we had the size? 

 

It is about 10.5cm round or so, and it is a bit concave.

It is early, but not early early. Shinsa judge went on about the lead possibly being early or original, but I didn't understand.

 

Tokubetsu Hozon. I was told to submit it to Juyo shinsa, but there are not Juyo Saotome... not even among the signed ones.

It is one of the few non Higo or non Owari in my collection.

Over time, I have found Saotome works more interesting.

 

 

 

[roger dundas]

Many thanks Curran for your endorsement of Bob Haynes' opinions regarding dating .

I meant no disrespect whatsoever towards him or his opinions but just the fact that he does put forward in almost all cases a date or period whereas others will just toss in an "Edo period" remark.

Quite a comfort to read your reply Curran with your confidence in his learned assessments.

Roger j

[Curran]

14 hours ago, roger dundas said:

Many thanks Curran for your endorsement of Bob Haynes' opinions regarding dating .

*  I meant no disrespect whatsoever towards him or his opinions

**  Quite a comfort to read your reply Curran with your confidence in his learned assessments.

 

I don't think the website is his. As happens with the grapevine, Mr. Haynes' opinions might get scaled up or blown out of proportion from time to time.

I know I have been guilty of taking something Torigoye-san wrote and interpreting it in grander fashion than he intended.

That is a mistake we younger students make.

 

Remember to take things with a pinch of salt.  Probably that saying is the same in Australia as here in SE part of USA.

 

[kissakai]

In the early years of this website Mr Haynes would have had a lot of input but not lately
I believe the tsuba sales would still be 'approved by him' Just a guess

 

In an earlier reply about dates I think that sometimes older tsuba are easier to date
Re  school like Onin

 

Worse date = Edo period which is almost meaningless and often a 'catch all' 

 

I could post tsuba that are circa 1500 or earlier

 

 

[roger dundas]

I want to get away from this thread but my  response above to Curran might seem a bit grovelling so here I am again.

I was just wanting to say that no offence towards Bob Haynes was intended.

'A pinch of salt' is used here too.

Thanks,

Roger j