Juyo Naotane

[Jacques]

  On 8/10/2022 at 8:02 PM, DirkO said:

Those o-mokume whirlpools are uzumaki and actually a kanteipoint for Naotane, however this doesn't change the fact the hada is indeed itame. 

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http://www.sanmei.com/contents/media/T47803_T5582.htm

[DirkO]

"When we take another look at the jigane we learn that there are some “unbalanced” areas of mokume within the ko-itame (in particular at the base of the sashi-omote side). These areas of concentrical mokume circles are referred to as uzumaki-hada and are a characteristic feature of Naotane blades."
- From Token Bijutsu 2009-03

 

"That is, Naotane also faithfully copied the shapes of the old blades whose style he tried to recreate. His jigane is either a koitame, an itame, or a masame whereas a characteristic feature of him, the uzumaki-hada, i.e. whirlpool shaped mokume areas, are first and foremost seen in combination with an itame-hada."

- From Token Bijutsu 2019-02

 

"When Naotane worked in the Bizen tradition, he hardened a ha, whose yakigashira appear to “fume” into the ji and connect with the utsuri. Works with a strong tendency towards the Sōshū tradition are generally forged in itame, but also show a unique mokume, which is referred to as uzumaki-hada."

- From Token Bijutsu 2022-02

 

"The jihada of such works is an itame mixed with ō-hada and shows mostly a characteristic uzumaki (a conspicuous whirlpool-shaped mokume element). This is one of Naotane´s most typical features and is not only found on works in the Sōshū tradition"

- From Nihon-shinshinto-shi

 

[Jacques]

  On 8/10/2022 at 8:02 PM, DirkO said:

Those o-mokume whirlpools are uzumaki and actually a kanteipoint for Naotane, however this doesn't change the fact the hada is indeed itame. 

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No, it's not uzumaki. Uzumaki can be seen on this sword. 

 

http://www.sanmei.com/contents/media/T47803_T5582.htm

 

Uzumaki is not a kantei point because Naotane only produced it occasionally. Uzumaki is a kantei point for the Shitahara school

 

[DirkO]

"... most of them show a mixed-in o-itame which appears in places as the famous "whirlpool" of Naotane. So it is nevertheless possible like here to read the personal handwriting of the smith"

- kantei-point enough? 320.661 Shinto and Shinshinto Kantei-zenshu

"That is, Naotane also faithfully copied the shapes of the old blades whose style he tried to recreate. His jigane is either a koitame, an itame, or a masame whereas a characteristic feature of him, the uzumaki-hada, i.e. whirlpool shaped mokume areas, are first and foremost seen in combination with an itame-hada."

- From Token Bijutsu 2019-02

 

"The jihada of such works is an itame mixed with ō-hada and shows mostly a characteristic uzumaki (a conspicuous whirlpool-shaped mokume element). This is one of Naotane´s most typical features and is not only found on works in the Sōshū tradition"

- From Nihon-shinshinto-shi

The Connoiseur Book describes it as his unique umuzaki hada

and the list goes on...

 

He didn't do it always, that's correct - but when you see it and the blade is from the correct era, your first guess has to be Naotane. Doesn't mean all of his blades had it, but it's a definite kantei point.

[Rivkin]

Passionate discussion, but... 

I am not Japanese. I am used to definitions involving abstract adjectives.

Japanese language on the contrary is being noun heavy and operates with nouns which are not as generic or abstract, but also vaguely defined and will be called by different names - by different experts and books.

For a while there was a very popular notion that most of what we call itame is really ko-mokume and should only be called as such.

 

There is simularly considerable width of what is defined as uzumaki.

Some insist it is essentially matsukawa like hada where the contrast between the "rings" is very high, and its first and foremost characteristic of shinshinto Soshu like Naotane and Ikkansai Yoshihiro.

Others add to the list the earlier examples of high contrast mokume hada: Shitahara, Nobukuni, Hasebe and Akihiro.

Others will say no, the earlier one is proper matsukawa not uzumaki, the difference being its chikei based.

"Zanguri hada is a shinto trait". Masame suddenly becoming "nagare" when one talks of better blades. Etc. etc. etc.

 

Naotane's work does tend to include mokume in most styles. His Bizen is much more mokume heavy right in the center compared to most other interpretations. that is assuming the definition mokume=burly, concentric, tree rings like patterns. 

His Soshu often opts for imitations of Norishige-ish school (Go as a usual suspect).

Different publications do use different language when describing those.

Don't be afraid to be white and use generic adjectives.

[Jacques]

  On 8/11/2022 at 7:06 AM, DirkO said:

"... most of them show a mixed-in o-itame which appears in places as the famous "whirlpool" of Naotane. So it is nevertheless possible like here to read the personal handwriting of the smith"

- kantei-point enough? 320.661 Shinto and Shinshinto Kantei-zenshu

"That is, Naotane also faithfully copied the shapes of the old blades whose style he tried to recreate. His jigane is either a koitame, an itame, or a masame whereas a characteristic feature of him, the uzumaki-hada, i.e. whirlpool shaped mokume areas, are first and foremost seen in combination with an itame-hada."

- From Token Bijutsu 2019-02

 

"The jihada of such works is an itame mixed with ō-hada and shows mostly a characteristic uzumaki (a conspicuous whirlpool-shaped mokume element). This is one of Naotane´s most typical features and is not only found on works in the Sōshū tradition"

- From Nihon-shinshinto-shi

The Connoiseur Book describes it as his unique umuzaki hada

and the list goes on...

 

He didn't do it always, that's correct - but when you see it and the blade is from the correct era, your first guess has to be Naotane. Doesn't mean all of his blades had it, but it's a definite kantei point.

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I don't base myself on general books but on the swords i have had in hands and on the descriptions of the swords (I provided 2 juyo Zufu, none speak about Uzumaki hada). On all those at my disposal very few speak about uzumaki hada. As far as I know, and until proven otherwise, uzumaki hada is only found when Naotane produced swords in the Soshu den style.

 

Edit :

 

Even Nagayama gives me right

[NewB]

I agree on the Shitahara 

Here's an amateur photo of Uzumaki hada by shodai Yasushige 

 

Cheers

 

J.

[Jean]

I remember that more than a decade ago, during one of our Kokusai Token Kai meeting, Zénon van Damme brought an engraved and signed wakizashi. It was made by Naotane in Yamashiro style and had these burls in the hada.

He told us that they were a kantei point to Naotane.

[Gakusee]

Jean et al, it is pointless to argue. I have numerous Juyo Zufu examples which mention the mokume hada in Naotane’s work. I just do not wish to waste my time attaching them here. 
 

The other participants enclosed numerous quotes from books and the Token Bujitsu magazine. Yet, some people like being argumentative and entrenched. 

[Jacques]

c

  Quote

I have numerous Juyo Zufu examples which mention the mokume hada in Naotane’s work. I just do not wish to waste my time attaching them here

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More bad faith... I never claimed that the hada of Naotane never contained mokume, I even provided examples of it, I say that contrary to what you claimed there is none on the sword that is the subject of this topic.

[Gakusee]

I am afraid that contrary to what you say,Jacques, there is plenty of mokume in the OP sword. 

There is no bad faith. Just plain eyesight and understanding of what mokume is, rather than just reading the setsumei. 

[Jacques]

Ok! Another one who thinks he knows more than the experts of the NBTHK. The great Albert was definitely right about infinity.

 

[Jacques]

The oshigata are not important here, the descriptions are

 

 

[drbvac]

Great argument gentlemen - no one is going to win cause to every exception there is another rule 

[Baba Yaga]

Ambiguous leads to profit! That's the other rule, 

[drbvac]

Then again it can be in the eye of the beholder and to quote Markus

 

"As mentioned above, mokume is when you see true burls. They might appear as larger ô-mokume or as smaller ko-mokume burls. An obvious ô-mokume can be seen for example at Ôei-Bizen blades (e.g. Morimitsu [盛光], Yasumitsu [康光], Moromitsu [師光]) but there is some kind of confusion when it comes to associate mokume in general and ko-mokume in particular as the Hon’ami school of thought seems to apply these terms to what others refer to as itame or ko-itame respectively. (Accordingly, most of the blades show for them variations of mokume instead of itame.) Again, I for my part say for the time being that a hada is itame unless there are some obvious burls and then it might be itame mixed with mokume. So please don’t get too much confused about when it is itame and when it is mokume as it is in many cases a mix anyway.

[Guest Simon R]

“Bad faith”?

 

Mmmm. That’s a tad rich coming from Mr. “99.9% gimei” Kiyomaru - “whoops, my pages got stuck together and that’s why I made a totally different call to Tanobe and the NBTHK”.

 

Condescension is not equal to superior knowledge - it only makes it far, far funnier when the condescending party falls flat on their backside due to talking in absolutes.

[Gakusee]

Ok, now that I am officially on holiday, I have a bit more time on my hands for a more thorough response to our resident expert in physics, metaphysics, human intelligence and psychology as well as Japanese swords. 
 

So, firstly, of course Naotane produced work in ko-itame, of which there are numerous examples. 
 

Below for your perusal is this beauty from the Juyo 17 session rendered in elegant ko-itame. The photos, while not particularly high-res, do show the tight ko-itame. 
The setsumei is quite laudatory, comparing the style to Kagemitsu and calling the deki (workmanship) superb. 

[Gakusee]

Some examples where the Juyo setsumei explicitly states there is mokume hada. 

[Gakusee]

Some more examples that talk of mix of mokume and itame hada. 
 

 

[Brian]

Wow Simon...been a few years!

[Alex A]

Good thread this

 

Funny too.

[Jacques]

Michael,

 

Thank you for proving me right, when there is mokume it is specified, if it is not it is because there is none and there is none on the sword on sale at Aoi art. You need to learn how read a hada correctly.

 

Katana:Soshi Chikuzen Daijo Taikei Fuji Naotane(NBTHK the 66th Juyo Token) | Japanese Sword Shop Aoi-Art (aoijapan.com)

[drbvac]

Potatoe - potato - tomato -tomatoe - you guys can't have much to do !!!!!!

[Guest Simon R]

  On 8/18/2022 at 1:55 PM, Brian said:

Wow Simon...been a few years!

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Indeed it has my old friend!

 

I’ve been lurking, so to speak, for decades - but it took a really humongous ego to persuade me to finally emerge from the woodwork.

[NewB]

Uzumaki hada = mokume

 

Per old papers/descriptions

 

 

Cheers

 

 

J&U

[Alex A]

Its whatever you want it to be

[Shugyosha]

  On 8/18/2022 at 7:40 PM, Jacques D. said:

Michael,

 

Thank you for proving me right, when there is mokume it is specified, if it is not it is because there is none and there is none on the sword on sale at Aoi art. You need to learn how read a hada correctly.

 

Katana:Soshi Chikuzen Daijo Taikei Fuji Naotane(NBTHK the 66th Juyo Token) | Japanese Sword Shop Aoi-Art (aoijapan.com)

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But all you did was read the papers. It's easy when you've been told the correct answer.

[Guest Simon R]

  On 8/18/2022 at 7:40 PM, Jacques D. said:

Michael,

 

Thank you for proving me right,

 

You need to learn how read a hada correctly.

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Dedicated to Monsieur Jacques, the bashful and introverted font of all knowledge regarding Nihonto (except, perhaps, for when he’s wrong).

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RCyYuLQ7_Ws

[Jacques]

  On 8/19/2022 at 6:06 AM, Shugyosha said:

 

But all you did was read the papers. It's easy when you've been told the correct answer.

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Read again my first post, I had not yet consulted the papers and at least, I do not go against what the NBTHK says and I do not see mokume where there is none.