Juyo Naotane

[Bryce]

G'day Guys,

I have been interested in Japanese swords for a little while now, but I admit to still being completely mystified, by many aspects of the hobby. Unfortunately I don't live near any big cities and don't have access to any clubs or societies, so I rarely have the chance to handle any blades unless I buy them. Recently AOIJapan have listed a Juyo Naotane katana at 6,500,000JPY. I can see that the jigane has some unusual features compared to the average shinshinto koitame. It looks like a nice blade, but can someone explain to me what makes it " next level" nice? I am just trying to learn more.

 

Katana:Soshi Chikuzen Daijo Taikei Fuji Naotane(NBTHK the 66th Juyo Token) | Japanese Sword Shop Aoi-Art (aoijapan.com)

 

Cheers,

Bryce

 

 

 

 

[Geraint]

Morning Bryce.

 

I am sure that you will get lots of replys to this but just to get the ball rolling........  Aoi Art produce really good images so you can see what the sword is, the sugata is wonderful, if you look at the enlarged view on their site you can see that the hada is very clear and consistent over the whole blade.  Now imagine forging and folding steel over a blade of this length and doing all that with such great control and without a single flaw.  The hamon is also consistent over the whole blade and very attractive.  By the by, here I do not think the oshigata does the sword justice, look out for the sunagashi that Tsuruta san mentions, it also is uniform and very controlled.  The sword is ubu, it's in great condition and it is clearly done by a master smith.

 

Now, the smith.  There is some information here, http://sanmei.com/contents/en-us/p1774.html  to add to what you already have.  So if Naotane is arguably the best Shinshinto smith and if he mastered all five of the gokaden, (pause for a moment and imagine that you can not only forge a sword like this example but you can do it just as well in four other different ways), and if he was the best at Bizen den and if this is his masterpiece...... See where this is going?  The shear technical skill to be abe to produce a sword like this is extrodinary, the ability to do it under such control that you can generate exactly the outcome that you intended without a single, tiny mis step is staggering.

 

OK, I'll shut up now.  Thanks for bringing this up, it really made me look at the sword.  It's all to easy to skim, isn't it?

 

All the best.

[Bryce]

G'day Geraint,

Thank you for your reply. Gassan Sadakazu/Sadakatsu are also said to have mastered all five of the gokaden, produced beautiful swords, but don't seem to sell at anywhere near these prices? I know they are a little later.

One thing about this Naotane sword that I have never seen before is the almost "thumbprint" pattern in the jihada that is repeated along its length. Is there a name for this?

Cheers,

Bryce

 

[David Flynn]

Naotane is the no1.  Shinshinto smith.  Although lists, usually claim Masahide as No1,    Naotane, was actually a better smith.

[Rivkin]

There are people with a lot of cash who collect. They like blades that cross all Xs - long, signed, famous name, high papers. Ready to pay huge premiums for that.

I personally would not see Naotane as great in all gokaden. He had difficulties with utsuri. His Yamato and Yamashiro are forced and artificial compared to Kiyomaro and Kiyondo. People don't think about Kiyondo as a great Yamato smith, but he was good from what I've seen. Naotane's Soshu in my mind takes second place to Naokatsu. Naotane likely signed a lot of student work. etc. etc. etc.

[Gakusee]

11 hours ago, Bryce said:

 Is there a name for this?

 

 

Mokume , isn’t it? 
 

Nice blade, in a style I like 

[PNSSHOGUN]

@BIG is a real Naotane-head, perhaps he can give some extra information or context.

[Bryce]

Thanks guys,

AOIJapan seem to have a number of Juyo Shinshinto blades for sale all of a sudden.

Cheers,

Bryce

[Alex A]

5 hours ago, Bryce said:

Thanks guys,

AOIJapan seem to have a number of Juyo Shinshinto blades for sale all of a sudden.

Cheers,

Bryce

 

Noticed price increases over recent years for Shinshinto blades, schools like Yokoyama.

 

Seems to be more interest.

[Jacques]

Tsuruta san is a little gamer  

 

 

https://www.seiyudo.com/ka-070622.htm

 

[Jacques]

On 8/4/2022 at 10:59 PM, Bryce said:

G'day Geraint,

Thank you for your reply. Gassan Sadakazu/Sadakatsu are also said to have mastered all five of the gokaden, produced beautiful swords, but don't seem to sell at anywhere near these prices? I know they are a little later.

One thing about this Naotane sword that I have never seen before is the almost "thumbprint" pattern in the jihada that is repeated along its length. Is there a name for this?

Cheers,

Bryce

 

 

Nothing special, it's ko itame

[Alex A]

Ko-itame works well with flashy hamon, such as choji, for example

 

For me anyways

[Gakusee]

This is not ko-itame. 

[Jacques]

It's ko itame and NBTHK says the same 

[Nihontocollector752]

The specific hada pattern the OP is asking about is mokume, the pattern is formed by making uniform hammer strikes in that specific area of the steel and to have three of them in a row, equally spaced shows considerable skill and consistency. 

 

As for the smith, Naotane is not a special shinshinto smith, everyone harping on about him in this thread is completely forgetting that the greatest shinshinto smith is Kiyomaro followed by Sa Yukihide as far as quality in soshu style and interpretation of Gokaden in their work, like masame hada with soshu hamon, etc, etc

 

Naotane is famous as an affordable option for a shinshinto smith of relatively good quality that can be obtained in exchange of Kiyomaro or Yuikihde as these smiths are insanely priced out  

 

Masahide school smiths like Sa Yukihide and Masahide himself take priority but Masahide being the official founder of shinshinto is regarded as experimental and so only his very best work in either traditional style or his flamboyant toran style are priced highly and usually accompanied with horimono 

 

Naotane in now filling a gap in demand for shinshinto works of varied forging styles, nothing else. Basically if you cannot have Kiyomaro, Sa Yukihide or Suishinshi Masahide, you can buy Naotane. Why not Hosokawa Masayoshi ? He trained many fine smiths like Sa Yukihide, but teachers rarely get the same recognition in shinshinto vs pinacle students that trailblazed in the later Edo period just before the ban on swords. Hosokawa also only specialised in Bizen and some Soshu.

 

 

[Bryce]

Thanks Guys,

When you zoom right in you can see that it is mokume. Parts of the blade are koitame while others are itame/mokume.

Cheers,

Bryce

 

[DanielLee]

I was told by a dealer (he consulted with the Fujishiro family) that the whirlpool like structure is a characteristic of Naotane works (depending on which gokaden i'm guessing). I've a soden example of Naotane where this appears.

 

 

[Jacques]

7 hours ago, Bryce said:

Thanks Guys,

When you zoom right in you can see that it is mokume. Parts of the blade are koitame while others are itame/mokume.

Cheers,

Bryce

 

Are you saying that you are better than the NBTHK experts? There is no mokume in what you show.

 

here there is ko mokume 

 

https://www.aoijapan.com/tachi-bizen-kuni-osafune-jyu-chikakage-ryakuo-4-nen-gatsuhi-jyuyo-token-46/

[Bryce]

G'day Jacques,

This section of the blade below I would certainly call koitame. You can't see any larger structure within it. Maybe it is just a trick of the light, but the sections I am interested in appear to have repeated concentric semicircles , which as someone has pointed out, maybe from repeated hammer blows which were not quite flat.

Cheers,

Bryce

 

[Jacques]

Hy Bryce, 

 

Sorry but it's ko itame and not mokume. If there was mokume on this sword the juyo zufu would say so and it is not the case. The mokume is not that at all, it looks a bit like the waves made in the water when a pebble is thrown in (see the picture shared by Daniel).

 

 

[Alex A]

https://markussesko.com/2015/05/13/kantei-2-jigane-jihada-2/

[Jacques]

 

see below

[Alex A]

On 8/8/2022 at 6:58 AM, DanielLee said:

I was told by a dealer (he consulted with the Fujishiro family) that the whirlpool like structure is a characteristic of Naotane works (depending on which gokaden i'm guessing). I've a soden example of Naotane where this appears.

 

 

Another mention on this example, again Bizen.

 

Aoi state "The distinctive feature of the Jigane is its spiral pattern."

 

They describe this jigane as Ko itame with Mokume.

 

On this particular example i do see small burl (although i need glasses lol) and a similar rather large whirlpool pattern (near nakago on right shot of blade)

 

Interesting thread, cheers.

https://sword-auction.com/en/product/4389/af18273-脇差-造大慶直胤（花押）-天保十一年仲秋/

[Gakusee]

On 8/8/2022 at 10:33 AM, Jacques D. said:

Are you saying that you are better than the NBTHK experts? There is no mokume in what you show.

 

here there is ko mokume 

 

https://www.aoijapan.com/tachi-bizen-kuni-osafune-jyu-chikakage-ryakuo-4-nen-gatsuhi-jyuyo-token-46/

 

Jacques, but this is a different blade entirely. It has some itame and some looser hada and nagare and if one looks really hard, one can find the ko-mokume. 
 

The Naotane in the post above clearly has mokume (not ko-mokume and not ko-itame) in the red circled areas highlighted by the OP for clarification. The rest of the Naotane blade has itame as you correctly identify. 
 

I also agree with you that Tsuruta san is a very skilled businessman and knows the game well and panders to our Western tastes accordingly. 
 

 

All in all, the wood burls in red circles and elsewhere are mokume. You could not really have only and exclusively mokume hada (even though it could be predominantly mokume hada) and in reality it is usually combined with some itame. 
Ko-itame hada is a tight and small and is a good compliment in general. 

[Jacques]

 

Quote

The Naotane in the post above clearly has mokume (not ko-mokume and not ko-itame) in the red circled areas highlighted by the OP for clarification.

 

Once more there is no mokume on that sword, read what says the juyo zufu  : ko itame hada, ji nie, thin chikei, and utsuri nothing else. What you take for mokume is only ko itame 

 

Quote

Ko-itame hada is a tight and small

Wrong ; if ko itame is small it's not necessarily tight. 

[Gakusee]

31 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

 

 

Once more there is no mokume on that sword, read what says the juyo zufu  : ko itame hada, ji nie, thin chikei, and utsuri nothing else. What you take for mokume is only ko itame 

 

Jacques, you are absolutely right that the Juyo 66 Naotane’s kitae posted above is described in the setsumei as having koitame hada overall. 
 

鍛：小板目肌つみ

I thought you were referencing a different blade, but you did enclose the setsumei to the Juyo 66 Naotane, which is the one on Aoi Art’s website. 

I am not contesting what the NBTHK is saying but it is possible to have some mokume here and there in otherwise itame based hada overall. 

Here, however, this is not mentioned, I shall concede that. Personally, I am surprised by that, but it is a fact. 
 

What is mentioned however is that this blade is believed to be an utsushi of Osafune Kagemitsu, which I find quite interesting. 

[Bryce]

G'day Guys,

Is it true that one of the kantei points of Osafune Kagemitsu is koitame mixed with small mokume? Tsutata san mentions the elaborate jigane in his description, so is this what Naotane was aiming for? The section of blade below looks to me to contain small mokume? It looks like one of us has to buy this blade and post better photos. It can't be me so it will have to be one of you guys.

Cheers,

Bryce

 

[Jacques]

8 hours ago, Gakusee said:

 

 

I am not contesting what the NBTHK is saying but it is possible to have some mokume here and there in otherwise itame based hada overall. 

Here, however, this is not mentioned, I shall concede that. Personally, I am surprised by that, but it is a fact. 
 

 

How far bad faith can hide, unbelievable. If there is any mokume on a blade, it is mentioned in the description. 

 

Learning to read a hada correctly is essential when you want to get involved in Nihontö 

[DirkO]

Those o-mokume whirlpools are uzumaki and actually a kanteipoint for Naotane, however this doesn't change the fact the hada is indeed itame. 

[Bryce]

G'day Dirk,

Thank you for clarifying that.

Cheers,

Bryce