Kantei

[Jussi Ekholm]

I was happy to guess the direction with Yamato Shizu, and there are so many interesting hints by Rivkin about the origin. I am not well versed in traditional practices of kantei so my thinking will be maybe bit out of box, as I do not know traditional style and traditions (who gets featured etc.). I hope I will go forward into right direction following the hints and not in the wrong way (that can often happen for me when I try to think too much).

 

I think my second guess would be Taima. I am not well versed in finer details and traits that differentiate these schools from one another. I would think Taima would be traditionally considered as "the best" of Yamato schools. Taima would also be fitting the late Kamakura - early Nanbokuchō time frame quite well. I feel also the earlier description about very specific attribution to smith for which there are not really mumei attributions would in my opinion suit Taima Kuniyuki. I know several signed tachi by him but not a single mumei sword attributed towards him. He is often thought as the founder of Taima but I believe some Taima work pre-date him in current state of research.

 

 

[Rivkin]

3 minutes ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

I was happy to guess the direction with Yamato Shizu, and there are so many interesting hints by Rivkin about the origin. I am not well versed in traditional practices of kantei so my thinking will be maybe bit out of box, as I do not know traditional style and traditions (who gets featured etc.). I hope I will go forward into right direction following the hints and not in the wrong way (that can often happen for me when I try to think too much).

I think my second guess would be Taima. I am not well versed in finer details and traits that differentiate these schools from one another. I would think Taima would be traditionally considered as "the best" of Yamato schools. Taima would also be fitting the late Kamakura - early Nanbokuchō time frame quite well. I feel also the earlier description about very specific attribution to smith for which there are not really mumei attributions would in my opinion suit Taima Kuniyuki. I know several signed tachi by him but not a single mumei sword attributed towards him. He is often thought as the founder of Taima but I believe some Taima work pre-date him in current state of research.

 

Its a very good guess, but midareba typically precludes Taima. They tend to be hard nie-suguha group, Tegai with good itame, not much into 1cm wide/20cm long nie "sunagashi". There is indeed a notion that signed Taima tend to be softer. 

[Alex A]

16 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

Nah, you do see it with Yamato Shizu. Shizu is not that great with itame jigane and he goes pure hard nie in hamon. A bit rougher overall.

 

 

Hi, yes following the hamon near the habuchi, just i could not find examples where it is high up towards the Shinogi-ji,  as in the kantei sword.

 

Live and learn.

[Rivkin]

18 minutes ago, Toryu2020 said:

Thank you for clarifying - very interesting piece. I would put a lot of faith in the attribution from Tenrai as he is my teacher's  grandfather and is actually the first person to put the Hon'Ami system of kantei as we know it into print.

Looking forward to the reveal but I do have to say I totally disagree with the following statement;

"The real purpose of kantei as we all know for the organizer is to have no risk o-sensei cosplay while embarrassing everyone else."

 

 

Aaa, Kamakura's Honami...

I don't like the proper kantei.

Shijo makes you memorize the combos of nouns corresponding to each maker... even though reading them is difficult, its not 100% objective and often different writeups on the same blade greatly diverge. It boxes you into stereotypes which in reality are not applicable as the works tend not to adhere 100% to what he is supposed to be in a kantei book.

The "real in hand" means three months prep-bootcamp committed to memorizing everything possible about 50-150 or so smiths. Its useful, but again - too fixed on stereotypes, avoids hard questions and narrow.

 

A complex early blade with multiple opinions is what I like the most. We don't know what it is - but we can present a few theories, discussing them and end up with two decent ones.

Thus I'll stick with illegal options.

[Rivkin]

4 minutes ago, Alex A said:

 

 

Hi, yes following the hamon near the habuchi, just i could not find examples where it is high up towards the Shinogi-ji,  as in the kantei sword.

 

Live and learn.

 

Yes, in the shinogi ji with Yamato Shizu its extremely uncommon and uncharacteristic.

[Mark]

ok, with further clues i now guess Kongobei

[Rivkin]

Rough, very wide and high contrast mokume. Negative.

[Ronin 47]

How about Ko-UDA, like KUNIMITSU (宇多国光)?

[Rivkin]

Its an interesting choice.

Later Uda can do decent Rai-styled jigane, and in regards to the late Kamakura Uda I think there are no 100% certain signed examples, so that would make a contentious point.

However they are typically specifically described as late Kamakura at best, nioi-guchi tends to be subdued, midareba is extremely uncharacteristic, pieces with Kamakura-like sugata tend to have rough Yamato jigane.  It sounds like a good guess to me, but no.

 

[Mark]

since you mentioned Sa i will try Sairen

[Surfson]

Kirill, my first guess is that it is a sword that you will have at the San Francisco show!

I also thought Norishige, based on some sections with what looks like matsukawa hada (plus you liked the Ko-Uda call).

Beyond that I thought it might be a shin shinto utsushi of a Yamato blade, but that seems out of the question.

 

[Rivkin]

Feels like we should do at least a partial reveal here...

 

Yoshihiro.

Honami Tenrai.

 

Now any guesses on the qualification by Honami Koson (supposed, comparing to oshigata is always a bit iffy) and what the NBTHK papers/sayagaki say?

[Ronin 47]

Perhaps they went with Sanekage instead? 

 

Very much enjoying the exercise, even if I have been a bit off so far.

 

 

[Alex A]

Now on to a Sukezane/Suketsuna combo

 

Thats me done on this for today, tough one.

 

A Kanenaga too at one point.

[Rivkin]

Let’s do the reveal!

As I said earlier, please cut me some slack – its easy to act as sensei when one runs the kantei and has all the cards, but still explanations should be given – and they should come with an exclamation its just a personal opinion.

 

There are a few ways to judge this blade.

Sugata locks you into either Kamakura-earliest Nambokucho or very late Nambokucho-early Muromachi. In hand the lack of niku and the balance point suggests Kamakura, but this is subjective.

Its heavily nie-based so its either Yamato or Soshu, with some exceptions. The coarse jigane in shinogi-ji comes up as very long lines, and that’s a sign there is long masame there as well.

 

Lets go Yamato route, its easier and faster.

Possibility 1: Not much comparable in early Muromachi, so accept the notion its Kamakura. Kamakura Yamato by definition should be first and foremost considered as Senjuin.

Possibility 2: Its Yamato with midareba. By definition it can only be Senjuin. That’s actually what the sayagaki argues. It can be added that nioi choji-like midare in Yamato is also exclusive Senjuin traits.

Lets go Soshu route, its also fun.

It does look like Satsuma, but nioi-guchi is seldom Satsuma’s strong point, it tends not to do nioi based midareba covered by nie and sugata is quite off. But its an important note, because Satsuma was particularly inspired by Go and Norishige. In the same way if we would say its Horikawa, we mean it looks like Sadamune.

We can also right away check that nie 1cm wide and 20cm long endulating “belt” is either Yamato Shizu or Etchu, its Extremely uncommon everywhere else.

So in Soshu route there are not that many practicing first class tight itame (often referred to as Awataguchi hada) with bright broad nioi-guchi and nioi/ko-nie hamon covered by nie towards habuchi. Most Kamakura lineage is strictly nie based, for example. The three options here are Sa, Naotsuna and Go. Some Mino Kanenobu are nioi based but nioi-guchi is weak and jigane is large featured. Naotsuna tends to have large featured jigane, more mokume. Sa is a good option, I felt. His itame hada is excellent, but he did not do much masame-nagare and ara nie away from hamon is uncommon. If you look at his kinsuji you don’t really see transition to masame.

 

In fact, Awataguchi hada with nagare, bright broad nioi-guchi and nioi/ko-nie hamon covered by nie towards habuchi, plenty of ara nie and occasional use of “nie belts” in Etchu fashion is a textbook definition of Go. You can find the exact wording more or less in “Connoseurs”. Re: Nabeshima Go meito and many other examples.

 

So what’s wrong with calling it a Go? First the boshi is not typical for Soshu, Go’s in particular tends to be much wider, its can be called “yakitsume” but its wide. Sugata is a bit different, the sori is larger, the tapering is larger than what you usually see with Go. There is arguably stronger presence of masame-nagare, nie within the hamon forms really nice clouds, but overall its presence is more… sort of  “stout”. It has substantially more Yamato character to it.

Here one can remember that there Senjuin Yoshihiro smiths from Echizen province, with signed examples, and Go Yoshihiro is often considered to be one of them. So the commentary of Honami Koson (which might be my confirmation bias, I really need to study the issue much more!) was that its Kamakura period’s Senjuin Yoshihiro, possibly the father of Go.

 

This in turn should bring us to the question – what is the so called Senjuin school? As I mentioned, its not advised to be placed in judged competition except Ryumon Nobuyoshi. The attribution to particular names is impossible; there have been attempts to write up different subschools but they all run into problems that there are plenty of nijimei examples which are papered Senjuin but which are not consistent namewise with “Shigehiro school” etc. Its also largely attributed in a negative fashion: really old blade with Yamato features which is not Yasutsuna or Kyushu-mono.

How did we come to this?

To an extent we have to thank the “five Yamato traditions” for that. When the classification was created Tegai Kanenaga and Hosho smiths were considered almost mid-Kamakura, and Taima was also referenced in Kamakura genealogies. When it became apparent that Taima, Shikkake and Hosho were very short lived, Tegai did not really begin until 1300 – still the “five traditions” were kept. So you have a bizarre case that Yamato Shizu is not considered a mainline, while Taima does.

Even more bizarre case is that while every Soshu tradition is “shadowed” by its Yamato counterpart, all of these counterparts actually can be found in Kamakura period’s Senjuin examples. Here is mid Kamakura “proto-Taima” in tight itame with nie splashed all over.

The quality varies, but towards 1270-1310 you start seeing extremely high end Senjuin. Awataguchi hada, nie laced throughout; the best ones do tend to come to old attributions to Echizen Masters like Go and Norishige. But they are different: the forging style can vary a lot within the blade, more comfortable with pure masame sections, more comfortable with chouji midareba or nioi ko chouji based hamon. The signatures are sadly lacking, but it can be ascertained as Echizen Senjuin – a precursor to Echizen Soshu.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Alex A]

Dam, knew it was Senjuin!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jussi Ekholm]

It has been very fun thread. I must admit I wouldn't have guessed Senjuin as I would have expected bit "rougher". Of course the tips with dealer hinting it as early-mid Kamakura and one smith (Nobuyoshi) being featured are now easy to see after knowing the result. I agree that Senjuin has slight "problems" as work by them (and attributed to Senjuin) span from earliest work seen as being from late Heian period up to end of Nanbokuchō. So there is a lot of ground to be covered.

 

For Senjuin Yoshihiro I have 2 dated swords a tachi from 1358 and tantō from 1353. I know there are possibly items from 1340's by him but I have not yet seen pictures of them in references. But perhaps Honami have had different info on him.

 

I enjoyed this a lot, very tricky one

[b.hennick]

I have seen a Juyo Senjuin that had a sayagaki to Norishige. There are a few areas that appear to have matsukawa hada.

[Alex A]

Last time i bring this up.

 

Not wanting to sound nitpicky, but (dare i say it) the Ara-nie, would anyone agree that for this school it looks unintentional?. Im not saying you wont find it on these blades, just saying it comes across as a forging error, to me any way.

 

This for me made it a lot more difficult, looking at blades such as Satsuma.

 

 

[Rivkin]

1 hour ago, Alex A said:

Last time i bring this up.

Not wanting to sound nitpicky, but (dare i say it) the Ara-nie, would anyone agree that for this school it looks unintentional?. Im not saying you wont find it on these blades, just saying it comes across as a forging error, to me any way.

This for me made it a lot more difficult, looking at blades such as Satsuma.

 

In Sadamune you start seeing now and then a string of ara-nie towards the mune, but he is a calm one. With Go its very much tobiyaki/ara nie heavy. 

[Gakusee]

Thank you, Kiril, it was rather challenging. 
One thing to point out - with Sadamune and Go the nie is not so large and ostentatious as here. It is somehow more refined. 

Overall, I was also expecting much cruder and more archaic looking jigane for Senjuin than this tighter hada in places. So, this blade surprised me. 
 

So, could you please recap the 4 attributions? Apart from Senjuin Yoshihiro, were the others merely saying Kamakura Senjuin or even just Senjuin? 

[Alex A]

On 8/2/2022 at 10:44 PM, Gakusee said:

Thank you, Kiril, it was rather challenging. 
One thing to point out - with Sadamune and Go the nie is not so large and ostentatious as here. It is somehow more refined. 

Overall, I was also expecting much cruder and more archaic looking jigane for Senjuin than this tighter hada in places. So, this blade surprised me. 
 

So, could you please recap the 4 attributions? Apart from Senjuin Yoshihiro, were the others merely saying Kamakura Senjuin or even just Senjuin? 

 

I would find this interesting too.

 

I get why even experts may disagree on this one.

[Rivkin]

NBTHK: Yamato Senjuin (Kamakura).

Sayagaki: Senjuin, alternative is Yamato Shizu.

Honami Tenrai:  Yoshihiro

Honami Koson (needs more research to verify 100%): Etchu Senjuin Yoshihiro, late Kamakura.

[Gakusee]

8 hours ago, Rivkin said:

NBTHK: Yamato Senjuin (Kamakura).

Sayagaki: Senjuin, alternative is Yamato Shizu.

Honami Tenrai:  Yoshihiro

Honami Koson (needs more research to verify 100%): Etchu Senjuin Yoshihiro, late Kamakura.

Thank you very much. 

[Lewis B]

This was a fascinating exercise and one I will be refering to as I try to unravel some of the complicated attribution history of my newly acquired blade.

 

I think it will be necessary to refer to some Japanese language source materials.

[Lewis B]

There is a book called "Sword Art Book" by Kazuo Tokuno who seems to have a some interesting theories.

 

He states ``This shows that Yoshihiro Etchue was one of a group of Senjuin blacksmiths who migrated from Yamato to Hokuriku. 
There are no characteristics that indicate a master-pupil relationship with Soshu Masamune, as was said in ancient times. 
In the same way, the characteristics of the Yamato tradition passed down within the Soshu blacksmiths who gave birth to Masamune are reflected in Masamune's swords. 
The characteristics of the Yamato tradition are also reflected in the swords made by Yoshihiro E, a Yamato blacksmith.If there is anything in common between the two, 
This is not a common feature among the Soshu-den blacksmiths, but rather a commonality between the Yamato-den blacksmiths over time. 
Named after the area of Yoshihiro Senjuin's work, the ground iron has a flowing texture and is stained with earthenware, and the hamon is all burnt in the bay. 
There was a streak of lightning running, and the hat was scattered and swept, suggesting a connection to Etchu's Yoshihiro. "
Mr. Kazuo Tokuno has also been suggested, and among the interpretations of the Hon'ami family in the early Edo period, 
Mr. Tokuno is also said to have implied the connection between ``Yamato Shizu'' and ``Shizu,'' ``Senjuin Yoshihiro,'' and ``E Yoshihiro.'' 

[Lewis B]

Here are a couple of swords attributed to Senjuin Yoshihiro. Style seems quite different to the subject of this Kantei at least regarding the jihada but the ko-maru boshi is very close.

 

https://winners-auct...p/productDetail/2667

 

This one has more detailed closeup images of a Juyo SY. 

 

https://winners-auct.../productDetail/26999

 

[Niceke]

Hello Everyone,

I´m doing some research about my first Nihonto. Probably from Senjuin Minamoto Yoshihiro. 

Must say that this is all new for me and still need allot ALLOT to learn

Please forgive me if this post is on the wrong place and should make a new post.

 

I have a few questions.

Is this katana real?

What year would it be built?

Is the saya original to that katana?

What does kanji means on the tang?

 

Here are the dimensions:

Sakikasane: 4,3mm
Motokasane: 6,1mm
Kissaki nagasa: 29mm
Sakihaba: 16,7mm
Motohaba: 26,5mm
Munemachi: 1.3mm
Hamachi: 1,3mm
Sori: 7,5mm
---------------------
Hacho: 65,7cm
Zencho: 82,4cm
Nakago nagasa: 16,7cm

 

Here are some pictures:

 

[Lewis B]

I'm no expert on Mei but that doesn't look very convincing. Does it have papers? As a novice collector I would only consider a blade that has gone through Shinsa. If no papers you would have to ask why. 

[Niceke]

I bought it online from Nihonto store.

Got only this "certificate" it is surely not NBTHK.