Are organizations obsolete

[Toryu2020]

PAZ -

Looking very much forward to enjoying your efforts.

 

You mustn't feel lonely, with this new inter webs thing, many more people will find you and you will find your people! (Wasn't like this for us geezers )

 

Both my Iai teachers were passionate about swords - many, many teachers I have met over the years have little or no interest or display the same tired misconceptions we often encounter here in the West. Yes I am talking Japanese Sensei. If you have the passion, you have to bring it into the conversation and get those kids talking ("Oh there he goes, he's go off again") you may be seen as the sword nut but it the way to find others. Blog away man those conversations will be welcome!

 

-t

 

[Paz]

4 hours ago, Toryu2020 said:

PAZ -

Looking very much forward to enjoying your efforts.

 

You mustn't feel lonely, with this new inter webs thing, many more people will find you and you will find your people! (Wasn't like this for us geezers )

 

Both my Iai teachers were passionate about swords - many, many teachers I have met over the years have little or no interest or display the same tired misconceptions we often encounter here in the West. Yes I am talking Japanese Sensei. If you have the passion, you have to bring it into the conversation and get those kids talking ("Oh there he goes, he's go off again") you may be seen as the sword nut but it the way to find others. Blog away man those conversations will be welcome!

 

-t

 

Thanks Thomas I appreciate that. 

 

What baffled me about budo in general both iai and kendo was that people are happy to practice these arts. But not many bothered to research the history or understand the origins of the art. 

 

In my opinion the sword itself, study of the nihonto tells many different things about how warfare changed. And that in turn tells us how the martial arts changed. 

 

I do remember my sensei showing me his Japanese made shinken. But it was a modern made iai specific blade made from modern steel. Not actually a shinsakuto forged by a Smith. Which I was trying to ask him without being rude. 

 

But It's also true as my fellow British members said previously, that the UK isn't as accomodating as the US when it comes to vieweing and collecting swords. 

 

Regards 

Paz 

 

[paulb]

Sorry Paz but I have to disagree regarding the UK not being accommodating re showing blades  had you been able to attend any of our society's regional meetings you would have had the, opportunity to see, handle and discuss some outstanding examples

[Jussi Ekholm]

I think traditional way of Japanese sword appereciation has kind of route that you "should" follow (like I feel is very traditional and strict in Japanese culture), and there are some things that experts elevate above others. I personally cannot totally grasp the ideology and Sōshū superiority is one thing I totally lack understanding for. I have been trying to read the reasoning etc. a fair bit this year but I think this art side is where I fall short. As I can often barely see nie with my eyes I cannot understand "utmost beauty" in Masamune nie, or "most important point in appreciating Masamune's work is comprehending nie quality" etc. (granted I have only seen 1 Masamune in museum).

 

Therefore even though some opinions are controversial in sword circles, I think it is nice that someone like Nakahara can voice out some bit controversial opinions contrasting the main stream.

 

To be honest I have next to no clue how Jūyō evaluation works in practice, I just keep record of the results and look into interesting items. I know some very interesting ubu items that have not passed (that I think should be Jūyō worthy) while lots and lots of suriage katana that are in fine condition keep passing year after year. Of course the status of NBTHK evaluation should not be "the" factor in importance, some items will be very important even if they will never achieve Jūyō status.

 

So I may be biased but I would much rather have 2nd signed and dated item from average smith like Bungo Munekage passing than 102nd suriage katana attributed to Rai Kunimitsu / den Rai Kunimitsu or 128th suriage katana attributed to Naoe Shizu / den Naoe Shizu...

 

Of course in those 100+ blades there is a huge gap between the best and worst passing. For example in Rai Kunimitsu attributed blades many of the best ones have passed also Tokubetsu Jūyō evaluation. However I think for Naoe Shizu attribution they will have to "upgrade" it to Shizu at Tokubetsu Jūyō. There are 0 Naoe Shizu at Tokubetsu Jūyō but there is one that passed Jūyō as Naoe Shizu and was changed towards den Shizu at TJ. Then there are in my count 17 suriage katana that are attributed to Shizu at Tokubetsu Jūyō. I think with that it is getting into very difficult rabbit hole where traditional qualitative factors in appreciation come into play for mumei swords. I am not qualified to really comment on that but I admit it can be totally puzzling to me. I feel so much weight is carried by the attribution, and it is confusing. Might be one of the factors why I would rather focus on lower tier signed items.

[Gakusee]

2 hours ago, Paz said:

... 

 

But It's also true as my fellow British members said previously, that the UK isn't as accomodating as the US when it comes to vieweing and collecting swords. 

 

Regards 

Paz 

 

???

 

Paz, what do you mean by the last paragraph? You probably have one of the most accommodating regimes in Europe ( believe me - it is actually tougher in continental Europe), with the longest standing Japanese sword society in Europe (established in 1964), where museums are helpful and assist with viewings of their collections (if done appropriately) and with long relations between the British Royal and Japanese Imperial families….

I can only ascribe your comments to your tender age and lack of experience and only recent membership of the Society. 
 

I would encourage you to make the effort to join us at the Royal Armouries in September (distance is not an excuse - eg, I shall be travelling 3-3.5 hrs each way from London) for some sword and Katchu viewing and socialising with members. 
We are having a Zoom session this weekend and we are yet to plan a physical session in London perhaps in October. 

[Rivkin]

Honestly don't know where this is all going...

What is being advocated - an expert opinion unchallengeble except by a diplomized expert is not science, its a religion. Unfortunately, it is reflective of the modern academia and society in general; I've been doing this weapon thingy long enough to repeat the statement - every community is covered on all sides by passionate people who have Zero personal collection (whether they prefer sai-jo or sai-sai saku) and very meager understanding, but insist that somehow Only through them the river of "real knowledge" flows. They can't comment on a blade, but they can write pages about how one should comment on the blade, collect, study and live in general. Yes, many dealers are like that too. They are also very moral and always of very particular political hue. Hint: not nazis. Well, actually in Russia they are all fascist-Putinist, but its an exception.

 

I long lost interest in what can or cannot make Juyo. I never submit myself. But I buy almost exclusively in Japan. I can say with certainty that 95% of decent blades I've encountered had strong indications they have been in major collections some time in the past. Its hard-ish to find a really good blade which is not Juyo. You have to invest time and skill, and get lucky. Sometimes such blades come with disagreements which resulted in ultra-conservative judgement. I do believe late Kamakura and Soshu (not Masamune though) were the absolute peak of the nihonto. This being said there are a lot of taste-based differences. I don't like Bizen and most of Rai. I don't appreciate most really old blades - ko-Bizen leaves me passionless and so is most Heian. Most Rai Kunitoshi is boring and I have no idea why Hizen Tadayoshi is so popular. I have almost zero interest in Muromachi, but admit some Oei and Tensho blades are cool. Yes, on average Juyo blades are substantially more attractive than non-Juyo ones. I can't argue with that. But I am a dumpster diver and should stick to proletarian venues.

 

No, budo people are not interested in nihonto. Is it really a bad thing? 

Japanese people are not interested nor are understanding of Japanese traditional things. That's surprising, but one gets used to it. They are enamored with ryokans, pagodas, stone gardens and lacquer utensils. Graduates of art history department in general do not recognize the name Kano right away. They don't recognize the name Muqi at all. they can't pickout Sesshu if they see one.

You have people knowledgable in such stuff spread thin through all venues of life - and many of them are absolutely not happy if foreigners collect swords. Tosogu is "sort of" fine though. Unless its top quality.

 

Yes, nihonto is way more secretive than most other collecting venues. People don't see gaining much from discussing what they have. Admittedly, they are being very Japanese about this aspect... Well, they have papers already, what more can they learn. You see often the only thing people discuss with commitment is their blade which "should have been TJ".  Its going to stay this way for a long time.

[Paz]

1 hour ago, Gakusee said:

???

 

Paz, what do you mean by the last paragraph? You probably have one of the most accommodating regimes in Europe ( believe me - it is actually tougher in continental Europe), with the longest standing Japanese sword society in Europe (established in 1964), where museums are helpful and assist with viewings of their collections (if done appropriately) and with long relations between the British Royal and Japanese Imperial families….

I can only ascribe your comments to your tender age and lack of experience and only recent membership of the Society. 
 

I would encourage you to make the effort to join us at the Royal Armouries in September (distance is not an excuse - eg, I shall be travelling 3-3.5 hrs each way from London) for some sword and Katchu viewing and socialising with members. 
We are having a Zoom session this weekend and we are yet to plan a physical session in London perhaps in October. 

Sorry Michael I was referring to the laws around blades in general, which as you were saying earlier are inconsistent when it comes to law enforcement. 

With the current war on knife crime, I've met 2 people in car parks to view and buy  blades. As we can't always take these indoors unless it's an event. 

 

I didnt mean to knock the efforts of the society and will hopefully be joining you in September aswell. 

 

Its just our freinds in the USA whom I've recently been speaking to have many more events. But that's probably because they have more swords in the U.S 

 

Regards 

Paz 

[Paz]

12 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

- and many of them are absolutely not happy if foreigners collect swords. Tosogu is "sort of" fine though. Unless its top quality.

 

Riv can you elaborate please on this? 

 

I've dealt with few dealers from Japan who are happy to sell to foreigners. And there's also one youtube show in which the Japanese dealers are happy that foreigners are interested. 

 

The idea i get is that no Japanese youth are interested in nihonto its usually the older generation.  In fact there is a video where they interview people in the streets of Tokyo mainly youngsters and none of them care or even know they are still made. One girl even said " why are people interested in these dangerous things"

 

Plus the Japanese freinds I trained with also showed no interest in old swords. Like you were referring to. 

 

Regards 

[mas4t0]

I can't help but wonder what the gender ratio is in sword clubs.

 

It's obviously male dominated, but are we talking <70% male? >90% male? 99% male?

 

Is the male dominance intentional and desirable to members? Is it ultimately about male bonding? A safe space of sorts for men, where a more even gender distribution would be antithetical to the underlying social goals of the group?

 

How would people feel about an increased female membership? Would you welcome it or do you feel that the addition of young women would change the dynamics of the group in an undesirable way?

 

I ask because (in my personal experience) showing art objects (of various sorts) to male friends (young men) has tended to illicit envy (which is never a good thing), but doing the same with female friends (young women) has often had a very positive reception.

 

Has anyone else had similar experiences?

 

Would you be pleased or perplexed if a dozen young women joined your society?

[Rivkin]

1 hour ago, Paz said:

Riv can you elaborate please on this? 

I've dealt with few dealers from Japan who are happy to sell to foreigners. And there's also one youtube show in which the Japanese dealers are happy that foreigners are interested. 

 

Mr. Saito and Sokendo have been two organizations working extensively with foreigners and selling high grade items. Obviously dealers are doing what they do to make money, and Japanese are very courteous in general. But no, foreigner collectors are generally feared and not liked, the higher the level the more there is pushback along certain channels.

 

[mas4t0]

27 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

 

Mr. Saito and Sokendo has been two organizations working extensively with foreigners and selling high grade items. Obviously dealers are doing what they do to make money, and Japanese are very courteous in general. But no, foreigner collectors are generally feared and not liked, the higher the level the more there is pushback along certain channels.

 

 

Kirill,

 

How does this manifest in your experience?

 

Outright refusal to sell (albeit politely), an additional gaijin tax, etc or that you're unwelcome in certain circles, etc?

 

Is it a matter of race, nationality, or simply not being a part of the Japanese elite who are "supposed" to own such things (i.e. would a successful Japanese entrepreneur or perhaps a lottery winner of low birth face similar pushback)?

[Katsujinken]

On 8/2/2022 at 5:45 PM, Paz said:

I was a member of the British kendo association, practiced both kendo and iaido. And from my experience not many practioners especially amongst the young are interested in nihonto. Maybe either because they believe their too expensive and difficult to obtain ( which is a point), or they don't care. Nobody in our numerous conversations would ever bring up the topic of militaria collection.

The truth is practicing Japanese swordsmanship on its own is difficult and time consuming, and most people barely approach mediocrity, especially these days when “training” for so many involves more beers than days in the dojo. So learning about nihonto can feel like quite a burden depending on how it is presented and integrated (or not) into the curriculum. 
 

So while I absolutely maintain that martial arts should be a great “side door” for nihonto and tosogu appreciation, it is important to be realistic about raw numbers. 
 

That said, a teacher who prioritizes incorporation of history and culture, to include nihonto, into their curriculum will absolutely attract students who can fall in love with nihonto and related topics, regardless of their budget. It has to start with the teacher. I personally believe that instruction in Japanese swordsmanship without these elements is incomplete. 

[Rivkin]

34 minutes ago, mas4t0 said:

How does this manifest in your experience?

Outright refusal to sell (albeit politely), an additional gaijin tax, etc or that you're unwelcome in certain circles, etc?

 

Everything publicly placed on sale will be sold. "Gaijin tax" is often people not willing to accept that in order to be given the first choice they need to be the most attractive option. All huge first class collections are formed by one trick - one needs to announce he will pay 125% of what's the next guy can for the first grade stuff. And keep his word for 10 years. Its not gaijin tax its a price of entering the market.

 

The gaijin issues are more direct but also much more situational.

There are some things Japanese dealers should not offer gaijin. Its difficult to be on the board of a major company or have a silimar position and collect nihonto. There are things you legally can own and move even out of the country, but chances are it will be years before you get the papers. Etc. etc. etc.

 

I am fine with that: I am far more bigoted than 95% Japanese, and at least Japanese are polite; a charge by the crowd of crazed Tokyo gaijin experts leaves no prisoners by comparison.

 

[Alex A]

Jussi, thank you.

 

Once again you throw some light on this somewhat dim lit hobby.

 

We all learn something new. I now have a list of smiths that im eager to learn more about.

 

For some that dont understand. Its never about questioning the knowledge of those that set the rankings but trying to understand their results.

 

When you think about it, it was one hell of a task!!. Sometimes i think the only fair way would be to line up every sword by every smith but we know thats impossible. in that respect, i wonder what may have been missed or overlooked and hence,  unfairly misjudged

 

 

 

[Matsunoki]

Going back many many years I recall an event organised by the UK Token at the Swallow Hotel in London. I reckon at least 35 years ago. It was I guess similar to the many USA sword shows that I envy.
I vividly remember a large room full of tables with swords for sale…..by dealers and collectors. Swords were “on show” as were fittings and armour. I believe there were lectures and demos as well…..but I was too preoccupied with the “for sale” room!

It was a massive success I believe….but of course took much organising.

I’m not sure if such an event could be staged now for many disparate reasons…..resources, enthusiasm etc but I do wonder if our Token Society could include a “for sale” section in its journals which might generate extra income which might fund other activities and generate a hell of a lot more interest and contact/interaction between members, especially those living in far flung wastelands (like me).

Lets be honest, nothing gets us going as much as the opportunity to actually buy something….if we are speaking the truth. Also focusing on whether to buy or not also makes us study and research. 
At that event something made me smile. A dealer said to me something like “what the hell do I know, a Kabuto I just sold for £2k just resold for £6k”. We all love a bargain don’t we🙂?

Im sure this has been kicked around before…apologies for resurrecting it.

All the best

 Colin

[paulb]

Colin I think the event you are referring to took place in the 1980s. I believe it was largely funded by several Japanese dealers and organised with the support of Kenji Mishina while he lived in the UK and the Token Society . I did not attend it but understand it was an exceptional event. It was also very expensive to put on.

 Since then I have been involved in the organisation of the two UK NTHK shinsas and  in recent years  Samurai art expo the original concept for which started in a pub in Oxford in a discussion between the Token of GB and NBTHK EU. Thankfully that event was adopted by the The Kensington Gallery who took on all orgnisational responsibility (and cost) and organised a strong presence of dealers from both Japan and Europe. We worked on the educational programme.

 

On a much smaller scale but at our regional meetings, which are usually all day events we do have sales tables where members and some dealers have items for sale. My last acquisition was from such an event.

To date we have avoided advertising in our magazine but this is constantly under review and may change in the future.

All of these events take considerable time effort and money and it usually falls to a small number of volunteers to make it happen.

Bottom line is that the last time we looked running such an event would cost the thick end of £35k which is something our society could not afford to do. Knowing the effort put in to the Utrecht event and our regional meetings I think we would be asking way too much of our already very willing volunteers to organise such an event.

However this may change  in the future. 

I know you live in East Anglia which causes some travel issues. I have a similar problem being based in the north East. We attempt to spread our regional activity to enable as many members as possible to participate. So far it seems to be working and we are seeing an increase in both membership and attendance

 

 

[Paz]

11 hours ago, Rivkin said:

 

Everything publicly placed on sale will be sold. "Gaijin tax" is often people not willing to accept that in order to be given the first choice they need to be the most attractive option. All huge first class collections are formed by one trick - one needs to announce he will pay 125% of what's the next guy can for the first grade stuff. And keep his word for 10 years. Its not gaijin tax its a price of entering the market.

 

The gaijin issues are more direct but also much more situational.

There are some things Japanese dealers should not offer gaijin. Its difficult to be on the board of a major company or have a silimar position and collect nihonto. There are things you legally can own and move even out of the country, but chances are it will be years before you get the papers. Etc. etc. etc.

 

I am fine with that: I am far more bigoted than 95% Japanese, and at least Japanese are polite; a charge by the crowd of crazed Tokyo gaijin experts leaves no prisoners by comparison.

 

I completely understand why they wouldn't sell certain stuff to Gaijin ie such as importance or keeping them in the country. 

 

In terms of knowledge alot of it is now translated into books. 

 

And I have to commend Paul martin and his work on translation and being a foreign sword expert. 

But I guess the elitism is prevalent in nearly everything, in most all hobbies be it art, to collecting stamps.

 

Regards

[Matsunoki]

4 hours ago, paulb said:

Colin I think the event you are referring to took place in the 1980s.

Brian please see my point 6 below.

 

Hi Paul….blimey time flies does it not? It was a superb event but as you say, difficult to repeat now financially and with the sparse volunteer resources not to mention sponsorship etc.

I’ve joined the UKToken because I want to support it - I believe this organisation is essential on many fronts….leading, teaching, sharing etc and also because we are moving forwards into an ever increasing climate of legislation regarding what is seen as offensive weapon ownership etc

However despite the successful efforts you mention regarding regional meetings I do believe other opportunities may exist to increase membership, inter-member contact and communication and funding…..not to mention learning.

Just a couple of suggestions which I have floated already and where I can’t see anything apart from benefits to both the Society and its members. I thus come back to them and would like to know the reasons why they are held back. This is in no way a criticism of anyone or of the considerable efforts being put in by the same few people (as usual…..it’s always the same folk doing the spadework)

1. Allow advertising and “for sales” in the Journal

2. Consider publishing a separate “for sale” list more frequently than the journal

3. Officially and visibly widen the current Token mission statement to include Gendai and Shinsakuto. Maybe even military swords. The interest is huge in these fields and I do not understand the need to specifically focus on antiques swords. Whether we like it or not that does still sound a bit elitist?

4. Maybe have a table at the Birmingham Arms Fair or London Arms Fair to both try and attract new members and to allow members to offer swords for sale or trade for a fee

5. Allow members to access a list of other willing members giving basic contact details to facilitate discussions/interaction etc. As I mentioned to you, I just spent a fantastic day with a fellow member and I’m sure other members would derive similar pleasures from such 121 contacts in the absence of being able to attend official meetings.

6. Open a discussion with Brian on this forum. He recently muted the possibility of using the “Club” facility to in effect set up specific closed sub-forums. Could the Token benefit from the superb opportunities for communication that this forum allows?

 

By all means take this discussion off this Forum…..although I would love to know how many other members are “hiding” on here!  Get involved ……it’s fun! (Well, mostly!)

All the best

 Colin

 

 

 

[Gakusee]

1 hour ago, Matsunoki said:

Brian please see my point 6 below.

 

Hi Paul….blimey time flies does it not? It was a superb event but as you say, difficult to repeat now financially and with the sparse volunteer resources not to mention sponsorship etc.

I’ve joined the UKToken because I want to support it - I believe this organisation is essential on many fronts….leading, teaching, sharing etc and also because we are moving forwards into an ever increasing climate of legislation regarding what is seen as offensive weapon ownership etc

However despite the successful efforts you mention regarding regional meetings I do believe other opportunities may exist to increase membership, inter-member contact and communication and funding…..not to mention learning.

Just a couple of suggestions which I have floated already and where I can’t see anything apart from benefits to both the Society and its members. I thus come back to them and would like to know the reasons why they are held back. This is in no way a criticism of anyone or of the considerable efforts being put in by the same few people (as usual…..it’s always the same folk doing the spadework)

1. Allow advertising and “for sales” in the Journal

2. Consider publishing a separate “for sale” list more frequently than the journal

3. Officially and visibly widen the current Token mission statement to include Gendai and Shinsakuto. Maybe even military swords. The interest is huge in these fields and I do not understand the need to specifically focus on antiques swords. Whether we like it or not that does still sound a bit elitist?

4. Maybe have a table at the Birmingham Arms Fair or London Arms Fair to both try and attract new members and to allow members to offer swords for sale or trade for a fee

5. Allow members to access a list of other willing members giving basic contact details to facilitate discussions/interaction etc. As I mentioned to you, I just spent a fantastic day with a fellow member and I’m sure other members would derive similar pleasures from such 121 contacts in the absence of being able to attend official meetings.

6. Open a discussion with Brian on this forum. He recently muted the possibility of using the “Club” facility to in effect set up specific closed sub-forums. Could the Token benefit from the superb opportunities for communication that this forum allows?

 

By all means take this discussion off this Forum…..although I would love to know how many other members are “hiding” on here!  Get involved ……it’s fun! (Well, mostly!)

All the best

 Colin

 

 

 

So, Colin, thank you for the suggestions. Below is a heartfelt outpouring and please do not take it as a diatribe but a reality description of what is happening in the U.K.  

As you mention both the London and Birmingham arms fairs, you must be familiar then with how both of these (much wider arms and antiques, going beyond the purview of only Japanese swords) fairs have diminished and degraded in the last 10 years or so. Poorly attended with barely a few interesting items available. Why? Commercial reality and advancement of technology (ie Internet) and awareness / knowledge. Side events/ gatherings of ToKen members around the time of the fair though do oftentimes take place in smaller informal groups. 

Then, do you think there will be enough support for a purely Nihonto based fair as in the US? The answer is unfortunately a resounding No. Such fairs seem to have had their heyday in the pre-Internet era when all the Nihonto aficionados had to go by was John Yumoto’s book and the arms fairs to buy or sell a sword. Sadly, when Eddy tried to organise the second edition of the Japanese / Samurai arms fair in Utrecht this year, please try to conjecture how many sign-ups (ie prepayment of a daily ticket) he had? Sad, very sad and very disappointing outcome. A couple of dozen. And this was supposed to be an event aimed at the large European countries surrounding the Netherlands, a well connected place and easy to travel to. The first instalment was a fine event with numerous Juyo and TJ items to view and study, with 10-15 dealers present, with iaido demonstrations and sword kantei, with sushi and lectures, with socials and drinks….There were only around 100 attendees over 3 days. 
 

Unfortunately, nowadays when one can buy a sword from Aoi Art with three clicks of the mouse (ask Paz for instance or other new ToKen GB members) or when people can place a “like” here or on Facebook, or view a NihintoNoBi or TheJapaneseSword YouTube video instantaneously, the Token of GB are struggling to attract more than 10-20 attendees to our physical events even when we roll out various Juyo swords by Saijo Saku top smiths. But our Zoom sessions, on the other hand, are often attended by 30, sometimes over 40 participants. 
 

I honestly believe that we have enough publicity and awareness among interested people that if they really wanted to join and participate, they would. In fact, we have been attracting foreign members in the last few years, whose only interaction with is via our newsletters and Zoom sessions. Believe me, the fact that gunto and gendaito are not mentioned in our statement is not stopping anyone. As mentioned before, one of our most prominent members with close to 100 swords in his collection, actually specialises in gendaito. What is hindering people is often apathy, reluctance to travel / participate / come out of the shadows / inertia. Or similarly to Kiril, they might not believe in organised events, mentors, sensei, authorities (whatever you might call them, we don’t have them in our organisation anyway). 
 

Regarding “for sale” publicity: we are not a commercial organisation but an educational one. Members can sell to each other as much as they wish. However, it is not our purview or ambition to facilitate or organise such endeavours since there are plenty of venues, dealers, arms fairs, auction houses and the like for such activities. Our little creative energies or available time are dedicated to indeed expanding the popularity of our subject, organising events and advancing knowledge of our members. 
 

What we are truly lacking is: individuals who have the commitment and energy and enthusiasm to share what they have, to organise regional events, to make presentations or to write content for the magazine or help with the editing of the magazine. Or even to attend / participate. People are often passive consumers of content. Nowadays, younger people crave instant gratification and knowledge and have no time to learn kanji, know about the Gokaden or Roads or traditions, or go and visit museums or study sessions to learn about swords rather than instead look on the Internet or search for answers on this forum and other such venues. How often do we cover the same ground even on this forum because newcomers did not bother to even use the Search function? 

Better inter-member communication and discussion is something we have been thinking about for a while and need to resolve. We are pondering a member-only section of our Token website akin to a forum. But that will also need volunteers to monitor, oversee, curate, administer. Any help putting it into practice will be appreciated. 
 

Anyway, as Tom Helm in the US has been advocating for a while, it boils down to participation. People often good-naturedly make recommendations but it is indeed the same committee members who often need to implement things or try to change things. If more people volunteer and participate, things could improve. Otherwise, we are all growing older, grumpier, less capable and energetic or willing to shake things up. 

 

 

[Paz]

Both Michael and Colin. 

 

I can't disagree with what Michael has written here.  And he's on the mark when he talks about commercial aspects of this hobby. I can click on a website or send a message on FB to buy a sword. Or what I have been doing is dealing privately with UK members. The plus is that I can view a blade before I buy it. 

 

And I'm afraid to say that most of my generation in the UK, if interested in buying a sword are going to go over to a website and click on the button. And it is cringe how some of  these people don't actually know what there buying. 

 

A young chap approached to buy one of swords when he saw them on photo, and he was told they were not for sale. He then goes and buys a stainless steel wallhanger  and claimed he now had a samurai sword. 

 

A good majority of youngsters in the UK interested in swords, are just not likely to pick up books and learn the topic before they buy. 

Now if these youngsters or middle aged men, attended a show or event where they can learn something then yes. 

I'm currently dealing with young similar aged people in the USA who seem to possess alot of knowledge, and guess what, they attend events and shows constantly. 

They get to hold Juyo blades and study them on a monthly basis. 

 

I will be absolutely honest. I actually did not know that you could even get a nihonto at a reasonable price in the UK until last Christmas. I had been collecting modern Chinese replicas, because I thought I couldn't afford or do better. 

 

 

On my masters course at SOAS for example,  no mention at all of Japanese millitaria and swords. There was more attention given to Japanese paintings as an entire course/ module. 

 

Regards

Paz 

 

 

[Baba Yaga]

2 hours ago, Gakusee said:

So, Colin, thank you for the suggestions. Below is a heartfelt outpouring and please do not take it as a diatribe but a reality description of what is happening in the U.K.  

As you mention both the London and Birmingham arms fairs, you must be familiar then with how both of these (much wider arms and antiques, going beyond the purview of only Japanese swords) fairs have diminished and degraded in the last 10 years or so. Poorly attended with barely a few interesting items available. Why? Commercial reality and advancement of technology (ie Internet) and awareness / knowledge. Side events/ gatherings of ToKen members around the time of the fair though do oftentimes take place in smaller informal groups. 

Then, do you think there will be enough support for a purely Nihonto based fair as in the US? The answer is unfortunately a resounding No. Such fairs seem to have had their heyday in the pre-Internet era when all the Nihonto aficionados had to go by was John Yumoto’s book and the arms fairs to buy or sell a sword. Sadly, when Eddy tried to organise the second edition of the Japanese / Samurai arms fair in Utrecht this year, please try to conjecture how many sign-ups (ie prepayment of a daily ticket) he had? Sad, very sad and very disappointing outcome. A couple of dozen. And this was supposed to be an event aimed at the large European countries surrounding the Netherlands, a well connected place and easy to travel to. The first instalment was a fine event with numerous Juyo and TJ items to view and study, with 10-15 dealers present, with iaido demonstrations and sword kantei, with sushi and lectures, with socials and drinks….There were only around 100 attendees over 3 days. 
 

Unfortunately, nowadays when one can buy a sword from Aoi Art with three clicks of the mouse (ask Paz for instance or other new ToKen GB members) or when people can place a “like” here or on Facebook, or view a NihintoNoBi or TheJapaneseSword YouTube video instantaneously, the Token of GB are struggling to attract more than 10-20 attendees to our physical events even when we roll out various Juyo swords by Saijo Saku top smiths. But our Zoom sessions, on the other hand, are often attended by 30, sometimes over 40 participants. 
 

I honestly believe that we have enough publicity and awareness among interested people that if they really wanted to join and participate, they would. In fact, we have been attracting foreign members in the last few years, whose only interaction with is via our newsletters and Zoom sessions. Believe me, the fact that gunto and gendaito are not mentioned in our statement is not stopping anyone. As mentioned before, one of our most prominent members with close to 100 swords in his collection, actually specialises in gendaito. What is hindering people is often apathy, reluctance to travel / participate / come out of the shadows / inertia. Or similarly to Kiril, they might not believe in organised events, mentors, sensei, authorities (whatever you might call them, we don’t have them in our organisation anyway). 
 

Regarding “for sale” publicity: we are not a commercial organisation but an educational one. Members can sell to each other as much as they wish. However, it is not our purview or ambition to facilitate or organise such endeavours since there are plenty of venues, dealers, arms fairs, auction houses and the like for such activities. Our little creative energies or available time are dedicated to indeed expanding the popularity of our subject, organising events and advancing knowledge of our members. 
 

What we are truly lacking is: individuals who have the commitment and energy and enthusiasm to share what they have, to organise regional events, to make presentations or to write content for the magazine or help with the editing of the magazine. Or even to attend / participate. People are often passive consumers of content. Nowadays, younger people crave instant gratification and knowledge and have no time to learn kanji, know about the Gokaden or Roads or traditions, or go and visit museums or study sessions to learn about swords rather than instead look on the Internet or search for answers on this forum and other such venues. How often do we cover the same ground even on this forum because newcomers did not bother to even use the Search function? 

Better inter-member communication and discussion is something we have been thinking about for a while and need to resolve. We are pondering a member-only section of our Token website akin to a forum. But that will also need volunteers to monitor, oversee, curate, administer. Any help putting it into practice will be appreciated. 
 

Anyway, as Tom Helm in the US has been advocating for a while, it boils down to participation. People often good-naturedly make recommendations but it is indeed the same committee members who often need to implement things or try to change things. If more people volunteer and participate, things could improve. Otherwise, we are all growing older, grumpier, less capable and energetic or willing to shake things up. 

 

 

"3. Officially and visibly widen the current Token mission statement to include Gendai and Shinsakuto. Maybe even military swords. The interest is huge in these fields and I do not understand the need to specifically focus on antiques swords. Whether we like it or not that does still sound a bit elitist?"

 

A lot of Tomfoolery going on! All of what has been said, has been said over decades. 

Like it, or not, this is a commerce hobby filled with grifting and misinformation. That's the BIGGEST hurdle, like it, or not. If your life is consumed by a hobby, you're either a professional hobbyist of said hobby, or something else.  Tosogu, Gendai and Shinsakuto are already half the posts on this forum. That should tell everyone where this has been headed. If collectors want to clean it up, then clean it up. Stop playing I have a better idea, it's a broken record. Learn how the game is played, or lose. The reason the numbers aren't there are because of the game LOL. 

[Matsunoki]

25 minutes ago, Baba Yaga said:

 

A lot of Tomfoolery going on! All of what has been said, has been said over decades. 

Sorry baba….you’ve lost me mate!

Am I losing the game or the plot?…..or both?

[Matsunoki]

3 hours ago, Gakusee said:

So, Colin, thank you for the suggestions. Below is a heartfelt outpouring and please do not take it as a diatribe but a reality description of what is happening in the U.K.  

Hello Michael

Thank you for your comprehensive reply.

For sure I am one of the older grumpier less energetic ones….I understand that very well!

Things have certainly changed in many ways since the days of my first collecting adventures. Yes technology has often replaced face to face and has undoubtedly damaged the Arms Fairs (I haven’t been for ages). 
I have bought swords from Japan but I don’t like it! Buying a sword when all you can see is a strong hadori polish fills me with unease….but I accept that’s how it is now. We must just ask more questions and hope for accurate answers….and then hope it actually gets here! Anyway no point debating….that’s how it is.

I disagree with the statement regarding the reasons for not facilitating “for sale” or advertising. Allowing this to happen or acting as facilitator but not actually getting involved would not make the Token “commercial”. But…..that’s how it is.

Regarding Members selling to one another….I have no idea who the members are or where they are. Yes if I came to a meeting I would meet a few but the logistics of travel make this exceptionally unappealing. That brings me on to the topic of inter-member  contact……I bet I’m not alone …..Paz was mentioning feeling lonely in his hobby. If we do nothing else can we not get our members in touch with one another….provided they want to? Again do we need to set something up if this Forum has a club facility built in?

I look with envy at our American (and other) friends…..the discussions and contacts within this Forum…..

I fully appreciate that a sword “event” is a non-starter for all the reasons we have both highlighted.
Given the lack of volunteers and active participants a solution that requires little such resource (this Forum??) is desirable…but that brings us back to the lack of active participation………please don’t expect me to sort out anything vaguely technical…..but I will try to write something interesting for the journal. 
I’m sure I can entertain some people and doubtless upset others🙂🙂🙂

Thank you again for your time replying.

kind regards. Colin

[Jacques D.]

22 hours ago, Rivkin said:

 

What is being advocated - an expert opinion unchallengeble except by a diplomized expert is not science, its a religion.

I don't know if I understand well what you mean, but would you have intervened in the controversy between Bohr and Einstein? I don't think so and yet it is exactly the same thing with nihontô.  

[Baba Yaga]

6 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

Sorry baba….you’ve lost me mate!

Am I losing the game or the plot?…..or both?

 

First and for most there is multiple red flags go up once you reach a level Nihonto collecting. 

I red flag this person for totally ripping people off in the Nihonto community. Before I came down on him, several of us tried to reason with him. That didn't work so well. The majority of collectors thought this person was a great guy. however grifters appear to be great guys. It took years for the community to catch up with his Tomfoolery. The guy ended up offing himself, or someone did it for him. This person sold problematic Nihonto for another person who is still looked at as a pillar of the Nihonto community.  Most people like myself and a boat load of people who have left and some who still are except this grifting. This is only a small example, I could go on and on and on.  Accept this behavior, look the other way and everything is fine. Except for the fact this hobby hasn't gone anywhere and people wonder why. 

 

I don't see why a thread that has 5.3k views should be locked unless you're a dictator.         

[Alex A]

On the original subject.

 

What ive learned over the years.

 

If folk really want to get involved then they can do. For me, been plenty of opportunities.

[mas4t0]

On 8/4/2022 at 12:05 AM, Rivkin said:

 

Everything publicly placed on sale will be sold. "Gaijin tax" is often people not willing to accept that in order to be given the first choice they need to be the most attractive option. All huge first class collections are formed by one trick - one needs to announce he will pay 125% of what's the next guy can for the first grade stuff. And keep his word for 10 years. Its not gaijin tax its a price of entering the market.

 

The gaijin issues are more direct but also much more situational.

There are some things Japanese dealers should not offer gaijin. Its difficult to be on the board of a major company or have a silimar position and collect nihonto. There are things you legally can own and move even out of the country, but chances are it will be years before you get the papers. Etc. etc. etc.

 

I am fine with that: I am far more bigoted than 95% Japanese, and at least Japanese are polite; a charge by the crowd of crazed Tokyo gaijin experts leaves no prisoners by comparison.

 

 

If I may request one further clarification on this matter...

 

What kind of price tier would this "first grade stuff" generally fall under?

 

>¥ 50,000,000?

>¥ 500,000,000?

[Baba Yaga]

17 hours ago, mas4t0 said:

 

If I may request one further clarification on this matter...

 

What kind of price tier would this "first grade stuff" generally fall under?

 

>¥ 50,000,000?

>¥ 500,000,000?

 Back to the thread Are organizations obsolete?

 I see people are confused on the word obsolete and why the LOW numbers of collectors. 

Ask yourself why has TV 

On 8/4/2022 at 5:08 PM, Baba Yaga said:

 

First and for most there is multiple red flags go up once you reach a level Nihonto collecting. 

I red flag this person for totally ripping people off in the Nihonto community. Before I came down on him, several of us tried to reason with him. That didn't work so well. The majority of collectors thought this person was a great guy. however grifters appear to be great guys. It took years for the community to catch up with his Tomfoolery. The guy ended up offing himself, or someone did it for him. This person sold problematic Nihonto for another person who is still looked at as a pillar of the Nihonto community.  Most people like myself and a boat load of people who have left and some who still are except this grifting. This is only a small example, I could go on and on and on.  Accept this behavior, look the other way and everything is fine. Except for the fact this hobby hasn't gone anywhere and people wonder why. 

 

I don't see why a thread that has 5.3k views should be locked unless you're a dictator.         

 

I advise collectors to watch the documentary "Sour Grapes". It's about a grifter everyone loved and trusted in the high end collecting of the wine industry. After Rudy got busted and sentenced there are still a large portion of the collecting community who still think the bunk wine they bought for extremely high prices are real. After years and years the collecting wine industry is still suffering as Rudys crap goes to actions. It's free on Tubi BTW.   In the documentary Kosh the multibillionaire makes a snide comment to collecting Samurai Swords. Someone LOL taught him about Nihonto too!   

[mas4t0]

37 minutes ago, Baba Yaga said:

 Back to the thread Are organizations obsolete?

 I see people are confused on the word obsolete and why the LOW numbers of collectors. 

Ask yourself why has TV 

 

I advise collectors to watch the documentary "Sour Grapes". It's about a grifter everyone loved and trusted in the high end collecting of the wine industry. After Rudy got busted and sentenced there are still a large portion of the collecting community who still think the bunk wine they bought for extremely high prices are real. After years and years the collecting wine industry is still suffering as Rudys crap goes to actions. It's free on Tubi BTW.   In the documentary Kosh the multibillionaire makes a snide comment to collecting Samurai Swords. Someone LOL taught him about Nihonto too!   

 

That story sounds familiar, was it featured on an episode of American Greed several years ago?

 

As I recall, he was buying wine, drinking it (keeping the bottles) and then refilling them to resell (also duplicating the labels and reselling multiple bottles).

 

They loved him because he would open and share the real high-value wine with them (before refilling the bottle and sending it back to auction).

 

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

A more lighthearted instance of this.....