Are organizations obsolete

[Jacques]

Alex 

it was second degree, I say that this blade was not suriage but made to look like it.

 

There is only one way to shorten a nakago, when it is an O suriage as suggested on the sword in question, the new nakago is made in the blade as its thickness is necessarily lower than the thickness of the blade 3 or 4 mm above the edge. There are other parameters but I don't have access to them because of the pictures provided. Already the sugata of this sword raises questions. 

[Alex A]

I get what your saying, its just that suriage was not always done the proper way.

 

When i look at the image of the full blade the impression i get is that it is too straight, so may well be O suriage

 

John has had it in hand so thats good enough for me.

 

Anyways, does it matter 

[Jacques]

Alex ,

 

Being skeptical allows you to avoid being cheated, it is better to miss a real opportunity than to buy something that is ultimately worthless.

 

About the sugata of this blade, the kissaki does not correspond to the length (77cm in total from which we have to remove the distance between the mekugi ana and the machi) which (before suriage) would make us a nagasa of about 71 cm, but the O kissaki was only found on the very long blades: 90 cm and more (this for obvious reasons of aesthetics). 

In short, when you add up all the things that don't fit, you have the right to doubt, No ?

[Jean]

O kissaki are also found on Keicho swords.

 

The O kissaki originated in the Nambokucho period and were in vogue between 1356 and 1368.

[Alex A]

Jacques, if you always came across like you did in your last few posts then you probably wouldn't wind people up as much. 

 

Yes, always have to be sceptical in this hobby.

 

One thing that always surprises me about this hobby are the swords that dont quite fit. I dont want to spend all afternoon pulling out examples of swords of different lengths from a certain period with large O-kissaki. If i did though wouldn't be surprised if i could find a papered example the same size as the sword we talk about.

 

Im more interested in finding more out about the blade itself haha

 

Cheers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Matsunoki]

I wasn’t going to bother but Jacques position, assertions and statements on this is becoming a bit crazy.

 

Firstly on the topic of Nihonto it is virtually impossible to “prove” anything so saying “prove it” is like behaving like a child in the playground.

 

I will actually explain to Jacques why in my “ignorant zero knowledge” state (his words not mine) I believe he is totally wrong. Frankly arguing with two very experienced collectors who have had the sword in hand (that doesn’t include me) just on the basis of my poor photos seems to go against everything that he purports to believe in.

This sword was bought by a collector many years (over 30) ago in the USA at a sword event and has been in his collection until I acquired it fairly recently. He had assembled a koshirae for it as it was  allegedly originally in wrecked military mounts. Fair bet it was a vet bring back.

It is my opinion that this Koto (most likely Nanbokucho) blade was adapted post Meiji restoration for a Kyu gunto mounting which was very common at the time.  That very often meant that the nakago gets  heavily reworked including shaving both sides of the whole nakago (hence it looks thin) and punching/ drilling more mekugi ana…often quite  accompanied by a rather rough suriage  crudely and quickly done. There are many similar examples scattered across this forum. It is common to see quite nice swords with wrecked nakago as a consequence. It would be at that time that the hasty yasurimei were re-filed all over……to improve the internals of the tsuka gripping the nakago.

 

But it didn’t stop there. It has DEFINITELY had the machi moved up again later as there are clear bright file marks on both the mune and ha edges of the nakago hence the pronounced machi. The yasurimei were then extended up the nakago again but done even more carelessly? You can see a distinct difference. I believe this was done to remount it in WW2 koshirae ie type 98 I think they are termed. That would probably have required a longer nakago for a secure mounting…..hence the machi-okuri.

The mekugi- ana are of different sizes ….some definitely punched (they have a taper) and some maybe drilled.

The hamon clearly continues unaltered into the nakago but disappears into the rough yasurimei.

None of this is unusual, many swords went through some rough treatment as they progressed through various post Meiji mountings.

I do  not believe ANY of the nakago is original

If anything that I have just said is implausible, unlikely or just plain stupid please correct me.

All the best folks.

Colin

[Matsunoki]

  On 8/1/2022 at 12:33 PM, Alex A said:

Im more interested in finding more out about the blade itself haha

 

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Hi Alex

I did actually  post this sword on the Forum….it’s an interesting read….lots of “poor” blade images etc -

 

[Alex A]

Remember it now, cheers.

 

Just concentrating on the blade, dont look Shinshinto to me.

 

Less important, neither does the kasane.

 

But what do i know

 

[Shugyosha]

There is always room for doubt in this field of study. None of us witnessed this blade being made or shortened so a definitive answer is impossible. 
 

Looking at the blade it has little left by way of hamon/ ha machi so the mihaba was likely to have been greater in its original condition. This and the nakago having been filed on the underside add to the impression of thickness in the tang. Also, that it wasn’t filed on one side as per a “proper” suriage is a contributor to this look. 
 

The blade isn’t in polish but as far as I could tell it was forged predominantly with masame hada and some itame. For me that pretty much pushes into the koto period as I’m not aware of shinto schools forging in this way (I’m not saying that’s definitive but that it’s a strong indicator). It has a high shinogi and kaen boshi and the preponderance of factors here point to an early blade rather than later utsushimono. 
 

I don’t think the state of the tang cancels all this out and I don’t believe that it renders the blade “worthless” or that thinking as I do merits any insult. 

[Shugyosha]

Sorry Colin, our posts crossed. 

[Jacques]

Jean i speak about NANBOKUCHO SWORDS and i will love to see an ubu nanbokucho tachi with a 71 cm nagasa and a 8.9cm kissaki  the O kissaki are variable in length because they are related to the nagasa 

 

example below nagasa 72.3 (O suriage) kissaki 6 cm

 

Finally it's not my sword. I will never buy this kind of thing, as a famous French advert says, "we don't have the same values". Sorry guys but yes I am an elitist, there are only 300 blacksmiths who have an interest in my eyes, they are the jo, jojo and saijo saku; and I have nothing to be ashamed of with my knowledge, I have worked hard to acquire it and I am proud of it. Whether you recognize it or not, that touches me one without making the other tremble, as Chirac said.

[Matsunoki]

  On 8/1/2022 at 1:44 PM, Jacques D. said:

Sorry guys but yes I am an elitist, there are only 300 blacksmiths who have an interest in my eyes, they are the jo, jojo and saijo saku;

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The why don’t you mind your own damned business if pieces like this don’t interest you?

……and may I remind you what you said when I first posted this sword and compare to what you say now. 
which is it?

 

Edited August 1, 2022 by Matsunoki
Added images

[Alex A]

Il be honest Jacques, surprised you said "Jo"

 

Ps, ruling Chu-Jo out can really make you miss out on some great smiths. 

 

Just one example.

May not be your taste, but did some great swords, 

https://www.aoijapan.com/tanto-bishu-osafune-ju-yokoyama-saemon-sukekane/

[Jacques]

You still need to know the difference between good craftsmanship and art, it took me more than 10 years to get there and it's impossible to judge on a photo.  

[Alex A]

And there you go again over complicating things haha

 

Agree about photos though. 

[Matsunoki]

Another offensive presumption from Jacques. Please excuse me  but for over 30 years I dealt in some of the finest Japanese metalwork ever made…..Kano Natsuo. Ozeki, Yamada Motonobu ……….etc etc ( with the worlds top dealers) and my first collection had swords that I try not to remember because it is so painful. (Back then sword knowledge and Information in the UK was very sparse) Sorry if I sound egotistical but I do at least know art and craftmanship and I deeply resent some twit  who doesn’t know me publicly telling me I don’t. I do NOT have the necessary knowledge to kantei blades….that’s why I ask for help….and why I offer help if it is sometimes within my sphere of knowledge

Dealing with both the people and art of Japan has taught me respect and humility (apart from the above statement!!…sorry!) and the vast majority of people that I’ve encountered on that journey behaved in a similar manner.

But there is always one isn’t there?

[Mark S.]

  On 8/1/2022 at 2:54 PM, Matsunoki said:

 

But there is always one isn’t there?

 

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And there you have the perfect definition of an elitist… they become an island unto themselves because everyone, sooner or later, gets tired of their attention whoring and making everything about them instead of the subject.  When they start to realize everyone isn’t enamored with ‘them’, they start to crap on everything to still get the attention they need.

 

How can you find the elitist in a crowded room?… wait 5 minutes and they will be the first one (only one) to make sure they tell you they are an elitist… they can’t help themselves.

 

Chirac???  Nobody cares what he said.

[Baba Yaga]

  On 8/1/2022 at 11:16 AM, Jacques D. said:

Alex 

it was second degree, I say that this blade was not suriage but made to look like it.

 

There is only one way to shorten a nakago, when it is an O suriage as suggested on the sword in question, the new nakago is made in the blade as its thickness is necessarily lower than the thickness of the blade 3 or 4 mm above the edge. There are other parameters but I don't have access to them because of the pictures provided. Already the sugata of this sword raises questions. 

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Oh, Alex knows he's being cheated, or he's speaking from a place of pompous ignorance. Both can be interrelated. It may be a geographical / geopolitical state of consciousness? I'm not exactly sure, but it appears ramped in a group think atmosphere.

[Alex A]

Crazy thread 

[Alban L]

  On 8/1/2022 at 3:23 PM, Alex A said:

Crazy thread 

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Indeed... and it's a shame. I totally understand that one can be as elitist in the appreciation of Nihonto as in any other Japanese art, but precisely the Japanese arts generally teach that developing inner control and modesty comes with mastering one's art.
Too bad to see peremptory judgments in certain comments, we all have different knowledge and totally different objectives, those who are more educated than others are useless if they do not wish to share their passion. Good to know some enjoy knowing about their knowledge, as Chirac said that touches me one without making the other tremble.

 

You're all sharing the same passion, should stay a pleasant reading !

[Alex A]

Dunno why im reminded of this movie.

 

[ChrisW]

With over a thousand years of development, history, styles, etc.... I don't think anyone has the right to claim the title of "Elitist" in this discipline..  except for maybe Tanobe Sensei and even then, I've heard he's a very humble and unassuming man. A wonderful smith can produce a low-quality blade, and likewise, even the lowliest of smith can produce a blade that should be held in extremely high regard. Far as I've read, the rankings just refer to a general sense of the known and published body of their works. Maybe as blades are papered and information is collated, rankings should change.. not be a static thing. But that is just my humble opinion. I look at the blade first, generally ignoring the name on it or on the papers until I've gotten an opinion on the quality of the work itself.

[Alban L]

And it is precisely pointless to claim being an elitist without anything more. all your knowledge will disappear with you if you do not enjoy transmiting anything to anyone. Please read the thread "and then you die", it's exactly the same with knowledge.

No Japanese sensei in any Japanese art would just enjoy being an elitist, no one would even dare to claim it, that's a complete nonsense showing the very bases of your art were not understood.

[mas4t0]

I would have taken someone self-identifying themselves as "elitist" (in this context) to mean that they only consider blades ranked at TJ, JuBu and Kokuho worthy of consideration and/ or would always defer to recognised experts.

 

Maybe we could clarify the semantics of what is truly meant (i.e. in what sense is the word being used):

1. A person who believes that we should defer to the elite (i.e. recognised experts in Japan)?
2. A person who has self-appointed themselves as a member of the aforementioned group and expects others to defer to them?

Can anyone clarify why a French politician is being quoted?

[Alban L]

  On 8/1/2022 at 3:53 PM, mas4t0 said:

Can anyone clarify why a French politician is being quoted?

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Don't know why it was at first. All I can say is it wasn't a very elitist quotation ! 

[Brian]

Maybe someone will consider taking this back on topic.
Not like any of you are going to convince anyone of anything. The relaxed members are those who learned to just ignore the trolls, elitists, and contrarians

 

[Toryu2020]

"Kofax takes the mound, the crowd are on the edge of their seats, Williams steps up, he looks ready to fight, first pitch comes across, "STRIKE!", not looking good for the batter, each player takes his set and here comes the second pitch, "STRIKE!", I am thinking Williams will need another strategy but wait, he takes the same set, Kofax fires, the ball is struck!, a high fly ball over centerfield, over everyone's head, over the banner on the centerfield wall, and the banner reads!?! Support your local sword club!!"

[ChrisW]

  On 8/1/2022 at 5:51 PM, Toryu2020 said:

"Kofax takes the mound, the crowd are on the edge of their seats, Williams steps up, he looks ready to fight, first pitch comes across, "STRIKE!", not looking good for the batter, each player takes his set and here comes the second pitch, "STRIKE!", I am thinking Williams will need another strategy but wait, he takes the same set, Kofax fires, the ball is struck!, a high fly ball over centerfield, over everyone's head, over the banner on the centerfield wall, and the banner reads!?! Support your local sword club!!"

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Time for a price quote on that?? Crazier ideas have worked.

[Jacques]

  On 8/1/2022 at 3:41 PM, ChrisW said:

 A wonderful smith can produce a low-quality blade, and likewise, even the lowliest of smith can produce a blade that should be held in extremely high regard. 

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I don't know if a sword made by a chujo saku has reached the rank of juyo but I would be very surprised. Jussi will probably be able to tell us about this fact. A high ranked smith will not let a mediocre work go by, it's a matter of personal pride, of course there will be some that will be less successful but the quality is always there. 

[Baba Yaga]

  On 8/1/2022 at 3:53 PM, mas4t0 said:

I would have taken someone self-identifying themselves as "elitist" (in this context) to mean that they only consider blades ranked at TJ, JuBu and Kokuho worthy of consideration and/ or would always defer to recognised experts.

 

Maybe we could clarify the semantics of what is truly meant (i.e. in what sense is the word being used):

1. A person who believes that we should defer to the elite (i.e. recognised experts in Japan)?
2. A person who has self-appointed themselves as a member of the aforementioned group and expects others to defer to them?

Can anyone clarify why a French politician is being quoted?

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You may want to think about Grifting going on in the "Commerce" Japanese Art World.  The Commerce of Grifting in the Art World in General is unbelievably high. Extremely vague information, self appointed experts, TOKUBETSU HOZON - "Extraordinarily Worthy of Preservation" trading for $7-10K. Ever wonder why the number collectors and organization number are so small.  Ever wonder why so many collectors drop*out after a measured academic level?  I can go on and on in depth, but a large number of people live to be taken for a ride. It's especially prevalent in a multitude of venues. People aren't morons for not figuring it out, just gullible.