Are organizations obsolete

[Baba Yaga]

36 minutes ago, Alex A said:

I dont think you need the experience of looking at 1000,s of blades in hand to work out what a particular sword is, and is that not the point ?

 

 

The NBTHK will definitely disagree with that statement,. The internet keyboard jockey isn't a substitute for "real life experiences". 

[Alex A]

Its a lack of understanding on your part Baba.

 

Yes the NBTHK are obviously more experienced and well read than us guys, but that does not stop them using a boat load of reference material (they are not so "EXPERT" all the info is in their head). It does not stop them making the wrong call on some blades either.

 

To be honest, i think some folk are that thick at kantei, they cant do it for themselves and because of that assume everyone else must be the same.

 

See it a lot in life really, over different things, human nature

 

 

[mas4t0]

For anyone curious, what's now being discussed (i.e. a representation or imitation of a thing as opposed to the thing itself) is formally termed a Simulacrum and what's being exposed here is a deep philosophical difference (as opposed to a lack of understanding or something that can be resolved through education or debate).

 

Similacra have been of interest to philosophers for thousands of years and I recall writing by Plato (The Sophist), Nietzsche (Twilight of the Idols, or, How to Philosophize with a Hammer) and Baudrillard (Similacra and Simulation) on the topic, though I'm sure there are many others.

 

Further discussion here will likely fall along the lines of prior philosophical inquiry.

 

Very briefly...

 

Plato uses an example from the visual arts as a metaphor for the philosophical arts and the tendency of some philosophers to distort the truth so that it appears accurate unless viewed from the proper angle.

 

Nietzsche addresses the concept of simulacrum (though he doesn't use the term), suggesting that most philosophers, by ignoring the reliable input of their senses and resorting to the constructs of language and reason, arrive at a distorted copy of reality.

 

Baudrillard argues that a simulacrum is not a copy of the real, but becomes truth in its own right: the hyperreal.

 

I'm sure we can all see the application of each argument to this current discussion.

[Jacques D.]

2 hours ago, Shugyosha said:

Jacques,

I’ve seen this sword in hand and it’s definitely none of the things you assert. It’s koto, probably nambokucho and showing significant Yamato traits. 
 

 

 

Ok but i didn't see any sign of suriage as we can see on these below 

 

https://sanmei.com/contents/media/T306299_S2849_PUP1.html

 

 

 

[Matsunoki]

19 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

Ok but i didn't see any sign of suriage as we can see on these below 

 

21 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

Ok but i didn't see any sign of suriage as we can see on these below 

 

[Rivkin]

The thread is obviously not controversial enough.

 

The first rule of going to any sword club, Japan, US or whatever if you own really high paper blade - bring one. 

Show it to club's senseis with a shaky hand and a begging voice - "could you help me with my sword".

You'll be told its Muromachi. Not a bad blade. Real samurai stuff. A short lecture. 

Then in innocent voice add "I got what you call... papers? for it". Take it out. 

 

In every major religious institution there are folks patrolling in search of neophytes. "I saw you praying alone... We usually don't do this here... Do you know why? Do you actually know the real meaning of prayer, as taught by Him?"

The mentor (who obviously denies such status out of modesty, for he is but a lowly student of Him - the Exalted Hermitian Sage of sacred living), is willing to part with his knolwedge... as long as the student promises to obey and never again pray in an inappropriate manner... maybe brew coffee ones in a while...

Everywhere there is an unseen hierarchy: the gurus, they first circle of bitc... hm... followers, their apprentices, finally the (few) unforgiven ones who read the books and pray alone despite all the notices. For others its 10 years of serving coffee to a mentor so they can become mentors to the new crop. The choice you have as a neophyte - institutions where the duties are coffee, cleaning and "learning", and those where they involve... a different manner of service. Before you feel bad about the "victims" - the second type promises much faster advancement through the ranks and much more aggressive support system. In the old times at least the graduates of such thus institutions were often locked out into their own eco-system, but today's world rejects the bigotry.

 

Every edge weapons collecting community has its cloud of "humble students".

No personal collection - just tales of 100$ sushi.

3,000 messages and not a single opinion on the blade, general and generalizing statements only. Decent commandment of Japanese.

Lots of mentorship pretense, though obviously - "after 50 years I am but a humble beginner".

I stopped going to clubs in Japan after being aggressively torpedoed by the local gaijin-on-crack crowd. Some had a secret polishing technique (if you don't use one the blade gets physically destroyed!), one was a successor to Tanobe and a curator of dozen US museums, others were also selling some crap - not even theirs.

 

You are what your friends are. If you have to constantly tell yourself "Yes, BUT Jim deep inside is really ok guy" - time to take a real close look at yourself.

 

[Baba Yaga]

1 hour ago, Alex A said:

Its a lack of understanding on your part Baba.

 

Yes the NBTHK are obviously more experienced and well read than us guys, but that does not stop them using a boat load of reference material (they are not so "EXPERT" all the info is in their head). It does not stop them making the wrong call on some blades either.

 

 

Your premise was is, "I dont think you need the experience of looking at 1000,s of blades in hand to work out what a particular sword is, and is that not the point ?"

 

That isn't looking at the same blade, or the same sword 1000 times. It's looking at 1000 different swords of size, shape, weight, polish and quality. I would expect and expert *Master too reference material if they believe they're 80% correct. That shows me they are absence of ego. With that said, the majority of papered "attributions" are 100+ years off.  

 

My beef with the NBTHK  *Masters is they take 1-3 minutes max to inspect the majority of swords. That time figure came from 3rd grade math! That time figure tells me they aren't using the book much. 

[waljamada]

I really want organizations to exist but wouldn't consistently attend one at this time in my life.  

 

To fill that statement out a bit what I mean is, I want experts talking, I want an environment for pursuing being an "expert", I want means to share learned information that gets a form of "peer review" and to encourage creation of new material etc...the high levels needs a venue and deserves a spotlight.

 

I (selfishly and altruisticly) also think ideally far more people could benefit from what the organizations can and are producing.  The investment in those arriving and people already participating in the nihonto is at the deep core of a healthy continuing hobby.  One day when I have enough knowledge to truly add to the nihonto field I will pay it back.  Until then I'll help at the lower levels.

 

Furthermore, organizations and conventions are still really the only way to organize larger scale spaces/times where people can physically share, do traditional physical kantei, give speakers a more traditional platform, gather sellers and buyers etc... and so many more classic needed goodies.  

 

I also agree with some above saying that gendaito etc...should be in the fold as it's one of the largest entry points and still created with the purpose of a functional tool of war.  Don't know that swords will ever be made and used like that again...ever...and deserve their place.  Not every nihonto fan needs or wants an "art" piece to be a collector or develop a passion and at the start most likely couldn't afford one....but one day they may/will.

 

I will say though if you search "Nihonto" on youtube, comparative to other hobbies I have, it's kind of a dead zone.  There's no consistent personalities giving it life or sharing guided examples or telling stories...it's a gap that needs some filling and perhaps that personality could come from or even be an organization.  It takes a person (or persons) with a good balance of personality, passion, knowledge and tech skill to devote some real time so I hope one day one arises.

 

TLDR: to sum it all up, need some beacon personalities/groups, more sharing of currently active groups/organizations online, materials/videos available to get people up and running on the basics, organizations to give expertise a venue and "microphone" and then to quote Jurassic Park, "life will find a way."

[Alex A]

4 hours ago, Baba Yaga said:

 

Your premise was is, "I dont think you need the experience of looking at 1000,s of blades in hand to work out what a particular sword is, and is that not the point ?"

 

That isn't looking at the same blade, or the same sword 1000 times. It's looking at 1000 different swords of size, shape, weight, polish and quality. I would expect and expert *Master too reference material if they believe they're 80% correct. That shows me they are absence of ego. With that said, the majority of papered "attributions" are 100+ years off.  

 

My beef with the NBTHK  *Masters is they take 1-3 minutes max to inspect the majority of swords. That time figure came from 3rd grade math! That time figure tells me they aren't using the book much. 

Hello Adam, see your name now.

 

I stand by what i wrote earlier. Watch the kantei here, if all relevant info is added and the images are good then someone always gets it, in fact some folk are surprisingly accurate on a regular basis. Im assuming their knowledge is not that of the NBTHK and they have not had 1000,s of blades in hand. For Christ's sake, its not rocket science.

 

Some folk blow their own trumpets about how much they know but when it come to these kantei they are not even in the right era 

 

As mentioned, when everything is textbook then life is a lot easier and i can imagine a Shinsa team getting through blades quite quickly, especially when a mei is present.

 

The headache is mumei/suriage and the work not textbook. To be honest, this at times, i consider utter b******** even bothering with., but you can still form your own opinion,

 

Noticed 2 examples of what i think a Shinsa team dont like to see when they are in a hurry.  Unknown, Unknown, from an experienced seller.

https://www.toukenkomachi.com/index_en_tachi&katana_A110119.html

https://www.toukenkomachi.com/index_en_tachi&katana_A070321.html

 

[David Flynn]

I was one of the founding members and committee member of the now defunct, Japanese Swprd Soc.  of Australia.   Unfortunately,  the society dissolved for many reasons, probably more so, the tyranny of distance.  Australia has a relatively  small population compared with the distances one must travel.   What I also determined that led to the downfall was, Committee members who were only there for what I would call selfish motives.  Instead of education, these members were only concerned  I believe, with how they could profit.

Sword collecting in Oz, is very fractured.   There are Sydney Collectors, Melbourne Collectors, Brisbane Collectors etc.  What I have found is that, these groups tend to be clickie.   Except for a couple of people who don't mind sharing their knowledge, most clicks, keep to themselves.  

[Gakusee]

I do not believe sword organisations are obsolete. They perform several functions:

 

a) social: allow like-minded people to have fun together;

 

b) educational: whether through hands-on study of attendees’ items in physical meetings or formal lectures or kantei or Zoom sessions etc they can teach a member something. Few are those among us who know it all and do not learn anything; 

 

c) informational: some members do not know how to go about submitting or sending swords to one place or another or how to go about restoration, for instance. Members of sword clubs and societies can usually help (sometimes members are restorers or people can be pointed one way or another); 

 

d) credibility-providing: often membership of such an organisation is viewed as a positive factor, among others, by law-enforcement authorities when evaluating an individual’s possession of a blade;

 

e) institutional: sometimes auch organisations can secure access or events that an individual, on their own, cannot. Examples include privileged access to museums’ collections or arranging a lecture provided by the NBTHK (in Japan, Europe or US) or other body. For instance, around the annual DTI, lots of overseas collectors gather in Tokyo. There are usually several educational events provided by several circles and one of these usually includes a session at the HQ of the NBTHK. 
Let us also not forget that often some of the members of such “organisations” have rare or precious or valuable-as-study-material items that an ordinary collector might not have. In this category, one can also include factors such as that the institution can write to authorities supporting a member or collaborate with authorities to shape legislation or regulation. 

 

The list can go on. That is not the point. We are social animals and cannot exist/operate in isolation, especially when pursuing a reasonably arcane hobby such as ours. Blades are best studied in hand and that happens in an environment where there is usually more than 1 person. And frankly an organisation does not need to be a formal club or society etc - it could be a small circle of friends too. That is how most “formal” organisations in our hobby commenced anyway. 
 

A point was raised about militaria items and how they feature in such societies. Actually, in the West, we are not so discriminate. At least in the To-Ken Society of GB there are many collectors of gendaito, gunto or showato, and even shinsakuto, despite our name including “To-Ken”. Things are probably different in Japan, where these are viewed as weapons and disallowed. But gendaito etc are quite common and owned. Different members own different grade swords of various merit, manufacture, condition. A lot of the U.K. members have a strong historic or practical interest in blades (several are martial artists), so again, one cannot claim that we are a group of elitists or theorists arguing over whether a hataraki should be called tobiyaki or yubashiri. 
 

I understand the frustration with organisations but I feel our discontent or dissatisfaction stem from the fact that we want these organisations to be protean, all-encompassing and fulfil all our needs - and that is not possible. They will meet some of the objectives but rarely all, or even the majority. If we find even one reason that is valid for ourselves, I feel we should be members of such organisations, provided we can afford it and can participate. 
 

 

 

 

[Jacques D.]

16 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

 

 

Ok, In your opinion, how can we tell that a blade has been suriage ?

[Matsunoki]

My opinion doesn’t count in your eyes. Game over.

[Jacques D.]

Ah, we're ducking out. Instructive. 

 

This picture is interesting and confirms my toughts (i've never seen a nakagojiri so badly done). Until proven otherwise this nakago is ubu. 

[Matsunoki]

Which bit of “game over” didn’t you understand? 

[Shugyosha]

Jacques,

In order that everyone can have a learning experience here, precisely what features are you suggesting indicate that the nakago is ubu?

 

Surely a well finished nakago jiri is more indicative of an ubu blade than one poorly finished after it has been cut through? 
 

I can see the hamon running on past the ha machi, isn’t that indicative of a quick and dirty suriage in line with the nakago jiri? 
 

There”s a great deal about this blade that doesn’t fit your argument and which you won’t have seen from the photographs alone. Your need to be the winner of an argument seems to have destroyed your objectivity. 

[Baba Yaga]

15 hours ago, Alex A said:

 

 

Some folk blow their own trumpets about how much they know but when it come to these kantei they are not even in the right era 

 

As mentioned, when everything is textbook then life is a lot easier and i can imagine a Shinsa team getting through blades quite quickly, especially when a mei is present.

 

The headache is mumei/suriage and the work not textbook. To be honest, this at times, i consider utter b******** even bothering with., but you can still form your own opinion,

 

 

I agree on those 3 subject lines. I stay away from forum Kantei for many reasons, none contributing to my own skill set. 

I've seen people say more than once, various fittings were Chinese, but they were just Japanese Military junk. And I don't study Japanese Military swords.

 

And you're right, few swords are reasonable, but most fall under the category of not. People have an inherent need for "right now" gratifying and treasure collecting. The let down usually leads to the argumentative and the "I'll keep digging my own whole deeper."

 

I don't know if you were around back in the days when NBTHK Shina Kantei wasn't laxed. Too make matters even more complicated as you say, "this is not rocket science" . MANY good sword smiths copied each other to the extent of perfection. Some will say Bungo and others did a great job at it. This may not be rocket science, but the difficulty is very academic.  

 

 

[Alex A]

Also, id be wondering why they would go to the bother of creating a mekugi-ana and then cutting straight through it.

[Alex A]

 

1 hour ago, Baba Yaga said:

 

I agree on those 3 subject lines. I stay away from forum Kantei for many reasons, none contributing to my own skill set. 

I've seen people say more than once, various fittings were Chinese, but they were just Japanese Military junk. And I don't study Japanese Military swords.

 

And you're right, few swords are reasonable, but most fall under the category of not. People have an inherent need for "right now" gratifying and treasure collecting. The let down usually leads to the argumentative and the "I'll keep digging my own whole deeper."

 

I don't know if you were around back in the days when NBTHK Shina Kantei wasn't laxed. Too make matters even more complicated as you say, "this is not rocket science" . MANY good sword smiths copied each other to the extent of perfection. Some will say Bungo and others did a great job at it. This may not be rocket science, but the difficulty is very academic.  

 

 

Hi Adam, this conversation reminds me of Facts and Fundamentals,  think it was him that said avoid unsigned blades. 

 

Kantei can be straight forward, as i pointed out, but can also be a pain in the ass when looking at a unsigned blades that do not seem to fit, blades where there is little information out there. I dont enjoy that,.

 

Always said, if not text book blades then you end up going around in circles and coming up with a few maybes.

 

Nothing wrong with unsigned blades by the way, just wish everything was signed for an easy life

 

As evident by the sword in the Kantei that is going on now, that has FOUR expert attributions.

 

Says it all.

[Toryu2020]

WOW!

I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading.

 

First off Riv - I was in the Boy Scouts and a lot of my early childhood friends were Catholic, I never witnessed any abuse. I lived in Japan for five years, specifically to study swords, I went to four Kantei-kai a month and visited many collectors in their homes, I never witnessed the abuse you describe. I say again I am sorry this happened to you, we welcome your "controversy", I think if you reach out we can help you gain a positive experience with the society right here in your backyard.

 

I am not sure some of y'all understand the two kinds of Kantei, based on above comments. I like Jaques, even tho I'm not following this suriage thread, I like Jussi, and Like them both I try to do a little sword study every day. If youre going to play hardball in the big leagues you need to train like Ichiro, if you just wanna play sandlot that's great but don't hate on the Big Leaguers.

 

Shijo Kantei or paper Kantei is the exercise where you look at oshigata and based on the descrition of the sword try to determine who made it. This requires you to learn the vocabulary and the various styles of hamon. It teaches you how to describe jigane in words but doesn't do much to teach you jigane. Therefor someone who studies from the magazine may in fact have a difficult time with Kantei in hand, even tho he hits the correct answer each month in the magazine. Kantei from photos is a fools errand.

 

In hand Kantei is the best way to learn shape, size, weight, curve, jigane and hamon. It is the way swords have been taught to students for generations. My teacher is a sword polisher in the 24th generation of his family business - lots of technological changes over those generations but the game of Kantei has changed little. Remember the artists are all pretty much dead, there is no more work coming from Masamune, so the material we need to learn is pretty much static. There are new tools available to us and exciting things are happening, I believe all this new technology will help. However having been raised in the old school, I have a deep appreciation for it and do not see it getting replaced only enhanced. (forgot to add; studying jigane is pattern recognition, something happens subconsciously that helps you to recognize origins, BUT you need to see 1000's of blades for this to be meaningful...)

 

There are guys who recognize swords in hand that cannot navigate the Shijo Kantei - cause they don't have the vocabulary or they don't understand the game. The game. Kantei is a game, it was an entertainment for courtiers that became entertainment for warrior that is now an entertaining game for us. If you don't play you don't understand the rules and the tricks and the skills and it might be easy to criticize others who do or those who don't. In Shijo Kantei they use certain expressions for certain schools or certain artists, when you understand this you will come to "hear" the hints that the teacher is giving you. In in hand Kantei there are certain conventions, usually five swords, usually one is very old and very special, sometimes that sword is in the number one spot, sometimes it is in the number five spot. Since it is a teaching tool they like to focus on textbook examples (studying gimei, gibutsu, flaws, rust, and oddball swords does not teach you what you need to know) sometimes, sometimes they will throw in a one-off piece by a smith that looks little like their usual work, but in this case there is almost always jigane, hamon, or something that is typical of the artist and if you spot it you get the correct answer. Wrong answers are more Fun! The judges hints when you pout in a wrong bid help you to see the sword in the same way he does, it teaches you what is appreciated and what should be emphasized. If all youre interested in is the points, and seeing your name in the magazine, you are selling yourself short.

 

Are you a "connoisseur" - the connoisseur's book is organized in a very specific way. This is the way you need to organize your thoughts on swords. I like to think of it as circles - the major areas of production are larger circle with more artists, more influence, more production and longer history. Understanding where these centers are, in time and in place, helps to assign any given sword to its proper spot. The closer you are to the center of the circle the clearer the influence and the clearer the work. Therefore there are swords that cannot be categorized. this is not the fault of the shinsa team - there were country smiths, lying between the large centers of production that didn't produce work that was clearly from any given tradition. They could still be good swords but just can't be assigned to any one group or artists. This is why Bungo Takada and Kai Mihara are popular pigeon holes they lie between major centers of production and show influence from outside - if the sword is kinda "in-between" then maybe it is from one of these in-between schools.

 

We have a sword show and shinsa, here in the U.S., next weekend! Come on out y'all and see how it works. Come see me for an insiders view. Buy me a beer and I could go on ranting like this for days. Organizations are in flux, the hobby is in flux, the community is evolving, the generations are changing, but organizations are NOT OBSOLETE!!

 

Support your local sword club!

 

-tch

Edited July 31, 2022 by Toryu2020
I'm stupid...

[Shugyosha]

Jacques, 

If you have something to say relevant to this discussion can you please post it in the open forum.

 

I’m assuming your PM is simply you explaining how great you are and how stupid I am so I won’t read it and please don’t contact me again by PM. 

[Alex A]

Guilty of using the tern "kantei" in its wrong context, cheers Thomas for the reminder

 

Yes, we have our online "kantei" here which is quite fun, but besides that the only time i get on the same kind of lines as a kantei is looking at blades for sale, here and the odd dealer.

 

Still interesting from time to time,, you do what you can.

 

 

[Toryu2020]

Alex - we do Zoom Kantei and welcome Brazilians, Canadiens and even Brits!

[Alex A]

Thats great Thomas, the wonders of the modern age.

 

Might just take you up on the offer.

 

Cheers.

 

 

[Jacques D.]

3 hours ago, Shugyosha said:

Jacques, 

If you have something to say relevant to this discussion can you please post it in the open forum.

 

I’m assuming your PM is simply you explaining how great you are and how stupid I am so I won’t read it and please don’t contact me again by PM. 

 

Tattling is not nice, I have received insulting messages and I have never shared them with anyone, I will never stoop to that kind of practice, if someone sends me a PM it's because he has his reasons and I respect them. matter of honor . That said, I only asked a question that you could have answered. When someone asks me a question I always answer and when I don't know I say: "sorry but I don't know" and I don't make a fuss about it. It is not dishonorable not to know.

[Jean]

Question has been asked, Jacques, and I am sure you’ll answer it.

[Shugyosha]

11 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

When someone asks me a question I always answer and when I don't know I say: "sorry but I don't know" and I don't make a fuss about it. It is not dishonorable not to know.

11 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

 

Tattling is not nice, I have received insulting messages and I have never shared them with anyone, I will never stoop to that kind of practice, if someone sends me a PM it's because he has his reasons and I respect them. matter of honor . That said, I only asked a question that you could have answered.

 

Jacques,

I'm not tattling and anyhow, we aren't at school now. Well I'm not anyway.

 

I could hardly tell you not to contact me by PM as that would mean that I had to open your message so I did it in the open forum. Likewise, I didn't share your message with anyone, I only shared the fact that you'd sent a message. If you've received insulting messages then I'm sorry for that but, that you mention it suggests that your message to me was insulting so I was right to ignore it.

 

11 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

When someone asks me a question I always answer and when I don't know I say: "sorry but I don't know" and I don't make a fuss about it. It is not dishonorable not to know.

 

That is a blatant lie. I've asked you a number of times to explain your reasoning in this thread and you haven't done so and when you don't know you resort to insults by PM. I have a vague memory of you vowing to leave NMB after coming second in a debate on Bizen swordsmiths, so you do make a fuss and if ignorance isn't dishonourable, why do you make such a big deal of putting others down?

 

The problem you have is that you insist on asserting your knowledge and intelligence over those that you interract with and he who asserts must prove, so the ball lies in your court. Show us what you've got so we can all be amazed.

 

[Jacques D.]

John, 

 

Quote

I’ve seen this sword in hand and it’s definitely none of the things you assert. It’s koto, probably nambokucho and showing significant Yamato traits. 

 

You assert something you have to prove it don't reverse the burden of proof, I have given elements indicating that this blade was not Nanbokucho and I have others in reserve notably the thickness of the nakago ha which does not correspond at all to that of a nakago suriage

[PNSSHOGUN]

Everyone is down on Jacques but he always creates interesting discourse that lead us to think more. If you don't respect the man, respect the lesson?

[Alex A]

Im confused Jacques, with what you say, its as though there was one workshop in Japan that did suriage and always did it the same.

 

The reality is it could have been done any old way. 
 

Nakago dont look too old so maybe suriage done quite late in its life.