Are organizations obsolete

[Peter Bleed]

A week ago I tried to ask a question about steps that organizations might take to keep the collecting community involved and active. My takeaway conclusion is that ORGANIZATIONS – as good as they may be – have a hard time doing this. But then I realized that there is a way of studying swords every day. In addition to dropping by NMB, I spend 5 minutes or so everyday visiting Aoi Art. Everyday, Aoi-sama rolls out a bunch of interesting stuff. I start with the Nihon-go, which is good exercise, and then I switch over to the English (to see what I got wrong)  and there it all is, laid out and clear. Are organizations obsolete?

[ChrisW]

I think the biggest part of the struggle is for the hobby, and organizations by extension, to compete for time with other things that go on in peoples' lives. When us folk in the ITK set meeting dates, it is invariably something we do in advance and often have to reschedule so that even just us few can make it. I think this problem goes hand-in-hand with trying to get younger folk into the hobby. Though online resources are huge in getting people interested and keeping them connected; so loathe I am to say it, but social media is perhaps the best way to move forward since it is the main method through which people arrange things.

[1kinko]

Interesting that you then go to the English translation to see what you got wrong. I’m a fittings guy and I wonder why no one has told Tsruta-San (sp) how to better describe tosogu than “engraved with gold color”. Is that really what the Japanese text says? 

[SteveM]

1 hour ago, 1kinko said:

I wonder why no one has told Tsuruta-San

 

The time required to fix the many translation errors/omissions on the Aoi Art site cannot be measured in calendar days and years. It would require its own cosmological scale. 

 

 

[Jacques D.]

4 hours ago, Peter Bleed said:

 But then I realized that there is a way of studying swords every day. In addition to dropping by NMB, I spend 5 minutes or so everyday visiting Aoi Art. 

 

If I say that this is not the way you will learn something, I will get beaten up again 

[Rivkin]

Man, whats happened at NBTHK-ab???

Personally I would say the best way to learn is to have one or two experienced people looking through swords and making comments.

Its very important for collectors to visit each other and look at blades tet-a-tet. 

 

Then handling blades by yourself, photography, looking at various dealers webpages, fromn Japan.

Reading kantei exercises.

Binge reading of Ph.D. thesis on pre-Sengoku topics since those can contain the views impacting swords genealogies yet never internalized by the nihonto community.

 

Message boards can be extremely useful when you get 2-4 knowledgable people who are active and argue with each other.

In nihonto the participation is more anemic I think because:

a. There are very many people committed to comments that one cannot comment at all on a blade... it needs to be shown to "an expert", polished and papered.

b. People are afraid they'll make a guess and then it will paper to something else and they'll feel stupid.

 

In non-nihonto there has been message boards which were phenomenal in their impact... and they never lasted.

Usually the dealer community and other "official experts" eventually get really upset and organize an extraordinary campaign to silence the participants.

Or the forum's moderator decides one day he is the greatest guru - because technically he can enforce the status.

Or you get a flood of bozos who band together and try to collectively take down someone they consider the most respected.

[IBot]

Way back in 1968 I and another corresponding member of the UK ToKen Society, that holds its meetings in London, decided to contact others in the North of England. Getting to meetings in London was not really feasible for me since it would have involved travelling some 180 miles, and since the meetings were held in the evening, staying overnight in a hotel, or travelling back during the night and then facing work the following day. Plotting the addresses of other corresponding members showed around half dozen or so lived within 1 to 2 hours drive of Manchester and were prepared to meet at two monthly intervals. Premises in that city were identified and in due course some 6 to 8 members met in an upstairs room above a pub in Manchester. Sadly by the date of the second meeting the pub had been tranformed into a trendy bar who refused us the use of the upper room and was so dimly illuminated that members had to take their swords into the only well-lit location in the premises - the gents toilet. Over the next many years members met in a series of locations, individuals dropping out and new ones joining but with the total of members rarely reaching a dozen. Then Covid hit and meetings were suspended, never to be revived. The reasons are many and varied. Old age has taken its toll and I suspect I am the only original member still alive. Others have lost the habit of going out in the evenings, given up collecting or now have vision problems that prevent them driving at night. In other words the Society is now defunct and sadly with no real likelyhood of restarting. Meeting with others, sharing knowledge and showing each other our latest treasure was an experience to look forward to that is now sadly missed.

Ian Bottomley 

[Matsunoki]

I think it also depends on why we collect and what “study” actually means.

I collect because I “enjoy” owning and examining these lethally fascinating objects. Not just the blade but the complete sword and the history that accompanies it….(providing koshirae are not modern or tampered with). I will never achieve the level of detailed expertise that many on this forum have…..but I don’t want to. I know a good blade from a bad one, nice fittings from modest ones and that’s good enough for my old brain. Blades are such a complex subject much of it is a matter of opinion anyway. It is nice to have expert opinions on a piece…..that’s why I’m here…..that’s why I post my modest items……for opinions and others enjoyment (hopefully!)

Group meetings bring difficulties…..often people decide they simply “can’t be bothered”….(that’s me for sure)…or they feel left out, or time limits what can be achieved….lots of problems can arise to put us off. 
One to one discussions are usually more enjoyable in my experience.

There are many ways to increase knowledge nowadays…..internet etc etc…..pick those that you ENJOY

…….and Jacques…..you can study the moon without going there, you can study swords without going to Japan.
 

[paulb]

I have worried for some time that society meetings were becoming less and less frequently attended. Some years ago we introduced regional meetings and the apatite for these was very strong. When Covid hit we resorted, like so many others, to technology and uses zoom to hold regular online meetings. These proved extremely popular and now even after commencing physical regional meetings again we are continuing to hold regular zoom meetings.

The point is that none of these things are exclusive and you can mix and match to suit member's needs. I honestly believe there is no substitute for holding physical meetings that enable you to look at blades and fittings in hand, share ideas with fellow enthusiasts and discuss what is in front of you. Enthusiasm is contagious and it only needs one enthusiastic presentation on a subject to inspire others. 

It is too easy, especially as we have got out of the habit of travelling to meetings, to sit in front of a screen and think it works just as well. It doesn't. I have learned more and more quickly from meetings with people who have generously shared their knowledge that I could ever have done on social media alone.

Use both for their own benefits.

 

[Ken-Hawaii]

Well said, Ian & Paul. I've had no response from any of the officers in my sword society, & I doubt it's because COVID killed them off. My sword mentor & I meet via Zoom whenever we find something worth sharing, & that satisfies 95% of my burning need for discussion.

[Peter Bleed]

Friends!

We are tending toward negative(and, Ian,  suggesting that 180 miles is too far to travel to see a sword is - well - laughable to someone from Nebraska - we drove that far for coffee).

I think we should be looking for ways of 1) looking at things, 2) judging them to expand our understanding, and 3) discovering things we do OR DON'T need. Experts are nice but not essential. We need to support them, not add to their burdens. How hard would it be to set up occasional ZOOM chats were somebody shows something to whoever tunes in?

Peter

[Matsunoki]

6 hours ago, paulb said:

I have worried for some time that society meetings were becoming less and less frequently attended.

Hi again Paul

 I think there are several reasons for this. I’m not sure what the age profile of the UK Token is……but I bet it’s slanted towards the “mature“ members? This in itself is a factor maybe?

I have just joined the Token, not because I will attend meetings regularly but because I want to support the organisation and the efforts it is making. Organising anything can be a thankless task in the face of what seems like member apathy. 
However, I think a massive reason for non attendance in the UK is the potential problems we may encounter if, for whatever reason, we encounter our law enforcement officers whilst carrying or transporting a sword….especially a Samurai sword. Being arrested is a real possibility when our police don’t even know or understand the law that they are supposed to uphold. Yes we can show them our membership card etc but it’s still an unpleasant potential experience. 
Plus many of us live in the middle of nowhere….like I do….which brings its own logistical problems.
Another possibility is that UK Token Society is for “antique” Japanese swords which seems to exclude gendaito, all military swords and Shinsakuto. All 3 of those categories are hot topics now…..would their inclusion swell membership and attendance? On this forum the interest in military etc is massive….and that includes me.

Just a few ramblings.

all the best

Colin

 

[Kiipu]

1 hour ago, Matsunoki said:

Another possibility is that UK Token Society is for “antique” Japanese swords which seems to exclude gendaito, all military swords and Shinsakuto.

 

This is the new entry point for collectors and also allows for the crossover of collectors of Japanese militaria.  In might come as a surprise, but almost all Japanese militaria collectors own a few military swords.

 

The future of sword collecting organizations is bringing together the religious order (Nihontō or swords as pieces of art); the warrior class such as martial artists, law enforcement, or military (the sword as a weapon), and working class (blue collar guntō & militaria collecting and the endless debates over what original paint was used on scabbards!).  With this combination, sword organizations will survive.  Oddly enough, this very forum does not have a subforum for the warrior class; yet, there are many with a martial arts background and would probably love to talk about it.  What is to become of them?

 

Apologies to Peter for the sidestep.

[ChrisW]

58 minutes ago, Kiipu said:

 

This is the new entry point for collectors and also allows for the crossover of collectors of Japanese militaria.  In might come as a surprise, but almost all Japanese militaria collectors own a few military swords.

 

The future of sword collecting organizations is bringing together the religious order (Nihontō or swords as pieces of art); the warrior class such as martial artists, law enforcement, or military (the sword as a weapon), and working class (blue collar guntō & militaria collecting and the endless debates over what original paint was used on scabbards!).  With this combination, sword organizations will survive.  Oddly enough, this very forum does not have a subforum for the warrior class; yet, there are many with a martial arts background and would probably love to talk about it.  What is to become of them?

 

Apologies to Peter for the sidestep.

I think part of the issue with that is the fear that martial artists may use antique blades for their practices, even though the vast majority do not. I am sure Brian could chime in more about the policies regarding that with respect to NMB.

[paulb]

Colin,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. You are right that our main focus has been and will continue to be antique swords. But this is not exclusive. In recent meetings we have had new members, some of whom are much below the "mature" category you mention attend and some have brought shinsaku-to and showa blades seeking opinion and advice. We try to be as inclusive as possible but as our name and mission statement suggests our core interest is art swords. many including me started our collecting career with showa period blades and through exposure to earlier works began to understand and learn much more. I am encouraged by the younger profile of new members joining us and at the increase in membership. I am hopeful that we can continue this trend despite some of the legal obstacles thrown in our path.

[Toryu2020]

I second the vote for a "Warrior Class" thread -

 

And Peter et al - I repeat; "The NCJSC does monthly Zoom Kantei, all participants have up to two weeks to submit bids for feedback from the judges and then all are lead thru a multi-choice quiz (ala NBTHK/AB) on the day of the meeting"

 

The more folks that participate the better these classes will get, so again support your local sword club!

 

-tch

[Jussi Ekholm]

I've been used to lone wolfing as living in bit remote location for this hobby. I think learning can be had with and without sword clubs the most important thing is putting in hours. Flying solo I think best way is to spend hour after hour using good quality references.

 

I would agree with Jacques that just Aoi website is not the way for learning. If not having good books and even if you have, I will recommend going through ALL Japanese dealers with good online precence at regular intervals (for example weekly). I strongly believe quantity is important in solo learning, so you must have volume and log in lots of hours. With teachers and good groups you could learn more in less time but I am still in the hard work camp. If you have for example 1 hour of daily sword study you should start to notice some results in few years. Sure it will nice to attend meetings every once in a while but I am firm believer of daily grind and putting in the hours.

[IBot]

Peter, I fully appreciate the concept of distance is very different between the US and UK, having spent weeks visiting friends in California. I think the size of country is a major factor in our perception. Thank goodness I have a tolerant wife who put up with my adventures abroad. I think we agree there is no substitute to physically meeting fellow enthusiasts and handling swords. Let us hope such events continue.

 

[Has anyone else noticed problems with typing on the forum? I am finding the cursor keeps making random jumps so that I find I am typing into existing text.]

Ian Bottomley

[ChrisW]

3 hours ago, IBot said:

 

[Has anyone else noticed problems with typing on the forum? I am finding the cursor keeps making random jumps so that I find I am typing into existing text.]

Ian Bottomley

 

 

If you are on a laptop, your trackpad might be going out or having a loose connection. If its a desktop, try replacing the mouse. Wireless mice are especially prone to this with some age.

[Jacques D.]

On 7/29/2022 at 8:16 AM, Matsunoki said:

 

…….and Jacques…..you can study the moon without going there, you can study swords without going to Japan.
 

 

That's probably why we went there 6 times and despite that we don't know anything about the dark side of the moon. Did you learn to read and write without a teacher? For the nihontô, it's the same. To really learn to read a blade, to distinguish an artistic piece from a kazu-uchi mono, to read correctly a hada, a hamon (which very few can do) to see the differences between schools, smiths and their different generations, to judge the quality of a steel, of nie and chikei, to see if a horimono is atobori or not etc. You need books, swords in hand and a teacher, I have been lucky enough to have one for about twenty years and yet I know that my ignorance is even greater than my knowledge because to become an expert you have to devote all your time to it which I cannot do.  That said, it depends on what you mean by study, as I have already said I take this subject very seriously and to be able to discuss a subject you have to know it otherwise what you say is worthless.

This is only my opinion but I won't change it.
 

[Matsunoki]

10 hours ago, IBot said:

Has anyone else noticed problems with typing on the forum? I am finding the cursor keeps making random jumps so that I find I am typing into existing text.]

Ian Bottomley

Morning Ian

I had this problem on my Toshiba laptop. I had installed a wireless mouse and after a time I got the jumping around into existing text issue. I was told it was a “conflict” between the wireless mouse and the laptop touchpad. To resolve it I was told to press the Fn key and F9 simultaneously and it stopped it for that session. Sometimes I had to hold down the Fn key and press F9 twice quickly. That did the trick but the problem has never gone away…..I have to do it every time I use that laptop. Dammed annoying. Good luck!

[Matsunoki]

5 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

That's probably why we went there 6 times and despite that we don't know anything about the dark side of the moon.

We don’t know anything about it because we can’t see it……but we can see Nihonto….in images and in hand. Your argument is invalid.

 

8 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

and yet I know that my ignorance is even greater than my knowledge

That doesn’t stop you discussing the subject does it?   So why insult others (as you did me) who also lack “expertise”?

 

10 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

to be able to discuss a subject you have to know it otherwise what you say is worthless.

…..see above……if your ignorance is greater than your knowledge does that mean what you say is worthless?

 

A teacher does not have to sit next to you physically or on a 121 basis for us to learn something. This forum has many very helpful and kind “teachers” who sacrifice their time to share their knowledge and opinions in a helpful and constructive way. And you can study for a lifetime……but on the subject of Nihonto, so much of it will always remain a matter of opinion, albeit some opinions are worth more than others.

[Jacques D.]

Everything is relative, if I compare myself to a real expert, it is clear that I don't know much, on the contrary if I compare myself to you and to the majority of the members of this forum it is clear that I know much more, this said without any animosity, it is just an observation. In general when someone feels insulted when you talk about his ignorance it is because it is true, people often tend to take themselves for what they are not (Dunning/Kruger). I personally never talk about tosogu because my knowledge is too limited to do so in a useful way. 

 

About the moon, the chinese have sent a probe on the dark side to study it. And yes to study the moon, Venus or Mars it is necessary to go there and the probes and other vehicles (mars exploration rover for example)  are used for that

 

ps please stop using strawmen, and use valid arguments.

[Matsunoki]

……so, all the scientists (like you) who studied the moon and all the planets you mention for many many years well before we actually got to any of them were not studying at all? What were they doing? Knitting?

My argument is not a straw man…..it is fact (you like facts)……you can study something without being there or holding it. 
….and yet you were perfectly happy to trash my possible Nanbokucho sword without holding it in your hands but using only my poor images. I believe 20th century was your call. Based on that it is difficult to believe that you know that much at all.

 

Brian and Peter ……sorry for being so far off topic…..please don’t ban me.

[Baba Yaga]

The question ??? is, Are organizations obsolete.

If any organization, or business is not moving noticeably forward it has become complacent and obsolete.

I would say since 1993, yes they, or it, has become obsolete.  Tech has advanced, but it's the same old, same old.

 

 

[Jacques D.]

2 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

……so, all the scientists (like you) who studied the moon and all the planets you mention for many many years well before we actually got to any of them were not studying at all? What were they doing? Knitting?

My argument is not a straw man…..it is fact (you like facts)……you can study something without being there or holding it. 
….and yet you were perfectly happy to trash my possible Nanbokucho sword without holding it in your hands but using only my poor images. I believe 20th century was your call. Based on that it is difficult to believe that you know that much at all.

 

Brian and Peter ……sorry for being so far off topic…..please don’t ban me.

 

Before you say anything, you should learn how science works and there are a lot of questions that we will never be able to answer, starting with whether there is life elsewhere or whether the universe has an origin or not. Having said that I am neither an astronomer nor an astrophysicist, my field is fluids and particularly the earth's atmosphere. 

No, you cannot study a Japanese sword (it's the real subject there) without having it in hands. More, you need to see others swords of the same smith at the same time to compare and understand the subtleties of his

work. What you call studying is not studying, it is looking without understanding

 About your possible Nanbokucho, if my memory good enough (and it is), the size of the hamachi says two things : this sword was very recently suriage and and it is very unlikely or it has been made recently and it is very likely (Of course there are very old swords in exceptional condition because they have been hoarded since they were made, but that is not the case here.); If you had studied this subject seriously, you would know that. .

 

Topic ended for me, trolling is not ma taste whatever some can say

[Shugyosha]

Jacques,

I’ve seen this sword in hand and it’s definitely none of the things you assert. It’s koto, probably nambokucho and showing significant Yamato traits. 
 

I’m sure that you are very knowledgeable but you aren’t infallible and if you felt able to add a little modesty and good grace to your interactions on here we would all have a more positive experience. 

[Matsunoki]

You need some spectacles mate and a better memory. The sword had definitely been shortened recently…..you have heard of World War 2 haven’t you?..so hamachi tells us nothing.  The nakago has been greatly reduced and reworked…it tells us nothing except that it is sad nakago now. You totally ignored my request to tell me the features of the blade that made it 20thC when others all thought Koto, probably (late) Nanbokucho having had the sword in hand as well as images. Of course the world is wrong and Jacques is right yes?

[Alex A]

I dont think you need the experience of looking at 1000,s of blades in hand to work out what a particular sword is, and is that not the point ?

 

No point over complicating what can be achieved by some study, some ownership and 1000s of examples in books and online.

 

As evident in the odd Kantei here, that is when the sword is textbook with all the correct info available.

 

Ps, I find it a lot easier looking at large clear images online of details for particular swords than i do trying to see it in blades in hand,

 

Horses for courses, everyone has their own view

 

 

 

 

[Matsunoki]

16 minutes ago, Shugyosha said:

I’ve seen this sword in hand and it’s definitely none of the things you assert. It’s koto, probably nambokucho and showing significant Yamato traits. 

Thank you John. It was a pleasure to show you the sword.

all the best

 Colin