Chicago show

[Rich S]

I trust someone will report on the Chicago show. Hope all have a good

time and find treasures.

 

 

Rich S

[Guido]

Doesn't look too good - Keith Larman is practically begging people over on SFI (http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=95592) to visit the show ...

[Rich S]

Hmm, you're right. According to Keith, very sparsely attended.

But then, given the economy for most folks $6000 for anything

isn't a bargain - a $1 loaf of bread is

 

Rich S

[b.hennick]

The show was very very slow! There were few walk-ins. There were fewer dealers there. None of the usual Japanese dealers came to the show. I sold a few fittings and bought 4 tsuba and an iron fuchi kashira. Generally prices were low but little was moving.

I attended a good talk on Yamakichibei tsuba. New theories presented, great examples, thought provoking - an eye opener.

[John A Stuart]

Hi Barry, Shame about the show. Was there a hand-out on the Yamakichibei tsuba? If not, what were the new theories, if you don't mind? John

[b.hennick]

Bruce Kirpatrick gave the presentation. He believes that the name Yamakichibei is in effect a tradmark. There were many people who made the Yamakichibei tsuba. He showed charactertistics that were common in all. Some were startling. For example the placement of iron bones was controlled. It was as if the tsuba would be stacked and the bones formed in a line. He pointed out chisel mark signature. He pointed out that the lower right corner of the tsuba was thicker than the rest. He showed hos the tsuba was folded and the commonality of lines heading towards the corners of the guard. On and on. He does not believe in the traditional two generation theory. His presentation was supported by great observations, some interesting theory and a good history lesson. I wish that there was a handout but the presentation was free flowing. Bruce has his detractors but it is hard to dispute his observations.

This was a most interesting presentation. He did not take into account old theories that are repeated in books. He believes that one had to look and understand the work not repeat what "sensei" said.

[John A Stuart]

Thank you, Barry. We are having a few theories stood on their heads lately. John

[Grey Doffin]

The show wasn't slow for everyone; I was busy. The American Branch of the NBTHK presented 2 sessions: how to do kantei, and later a chance to try your newly learned skills with a kantei on 4 blades. The latter session also had about 6 very nice blades that weren't for formal kantei; just to enjoy. The highlight of the session was a Tokubetsu Juyo tachi by Rai Kunimitsu.

Grey

[Keith Larman]

The highlight for me were the NBTHK presentations. Two Rai Kunitoshi, two Tametsugu, a Kunimitsu, Hiromitsu, and Unju. All Juyo and higher. And I was shown another blade in private that blew me away completely. Can't comment on it for a variety of reasons, but it was by far the best blade I've ever seen -- that includes the swords in the NBTHK ab session.

 

I tried begging over on SFI hoping some of those guys would bother attending rather than just talking about swords! Like Barry said, very, very few walk ins. The sword world has become someone insular and exclusive. So mostly what was happening was the normal suspects buying and horse trading among themselves. I bought a few things I needed and took care of a few bits of business. But honestly I didn't need to attend a show to do those things. I know some guys made a lot of deals among themselves, but where is the next generation going to come from? I went to dinner with a number of the big fellas on Saturday and they weren't moving much.

 

But yes, I'm sure lots of the inexpensive tsuba, fuchi kashira, etc. sold and moved around. I bought some menuki from Barry for a project and another set from Cole for another.

 

In previous years there are times it is hard to walk the aisles. The last few shows have seemed like the aisles are a lot wider and there are fewer people in them anyway...

 

Grey, out of curiosity, how many people attended the etiquette seminar?

[Keith Larman]

And since I'm thinking about it...

 

Friends joke with me about the amount of time I spend trying to write stuff on forums where few dare to tread. I got some good natured ribbing about that at Chicago as a matter of fact. "Why bother" or "Pearls before swine" is what I hear... I understand that. Lord knows I've walked away many times. I'm hardly posting myself anymore. And we tend to scurry to find a quiet corner like this forum so we can focus on what we do and what we all love. We then quietly hope the "unwashed masses" won't find it and flood the forums with questions about anime swords and silly mythology. And it is a very good thing *for us* to have this place.

 

But... Each year the attendance at these things gets lower. Each year the room gets grayer (or more balding or both). And every year we seem to lose someone else. So while the signal to noise ratio is almost unbearable on some of these other forums, where are the next generation of collectors going to come from? Ted Tenold and I have done presentations (Mike Yamasaki helped out the last time too) on behalf of the NBTHK at Japanese sword art tai kai to try to get the martial artists more interested in the collecting side. I periodically gather up the courage to wade onto the larger sword forums. And a few guys I'd spoken to on-line did make it to the show. One bought a few books and went home with a tsuba and a gunto. It's a start.

 

But most have written it all off. And fewer and fewer appear at the shows. So where will the next generation come from?

 

And no, I don't have any answers either. Just observations. My plea on SFI was to hopefully get some of them off their butts. I *know* many of them are close to San Francisco. Maybe we can convince more to attend there. And maybe one, just one person, will catch the bug and continue coming.

 

And hopefully that person won't get bent over a table by any number of people.

[John A Stuart]

Hi Keith, I wonder myself sometimes. I see some young people catch the bug and lose interest when the realisation kicks in that, it involves time and study and is a long learning curve. There is so much out there that provides instant gratification and youth have always had attention deficit anyway, flitting from interest to interest, fad to fad. That means the more mature person gravitates to the hobby to begin with. The fact that a good Nihonto is equivalent to the price of a car or more leaves the younger crowd, who are just starting to earn, underfunded. Even quality fittings are a large investment for them. Another thing is that it is better to enjoy a passion in the company of others with like interests, after all, the herd instinct is strong among the young and their peers. How many in a large town would be interested in this and find contemporaries with the same interest? As a youth, it was stamps, coins, minerals etc. What youth does that anymore? It has become passe. Add to this the fakes and fraudsters, why bother? John

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Keith,

I had about 6 or 7 attendees at my care and etiquette talk, and another 3 or 4 who showed up at the end got a truncated version. The lack of a notice board in the lobby with show schedule hurt; no one knew it was going to happen until I made an announcement just before.

Grey

[Keith Larman]

Actually that was why I asked. I was told I'd be taking photos at the kantei sessions but then that morning I realized I had no idea (for sure) when they were going to be. I wandered out into the lobby, didn't see a board, asked around and finally found a board member. That's when I noticed a 8.5x11 piece of paper up front with the info including your session.

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Barry,

 

It sounds as though the Yamakichibei lecture would have been right up my street :D I'm sure many of us would love to read a write up or article on the subject...any chance you might persuade Mr Kirpatrick to get his theory published?

 

regards,

 

Ford

[Brian]

Hi Keith,

 

Thanks for the updates. Must say, it is sad that some feel the forums and/or the shows are a waste of time. I think they have slipped into their own little "comfort zone" among people they know, and are destined to stay there mingling among the same people until they retire from this game.

I expect the "pearls before swine" comment is very similar to how the Japanese felt about us Westerners delving into the world of Nihonto years ago, and thankfully they were proven wrong. Might want to remind folk of this same thing

 

One thing that has become very apparent is the lack of young collectors and enthusiasts nowdays. The recent poll here in GD was very disturbing. 1 Person under 20, and only 6 between 20-29?

Majority being over 50. That says a lot for the state of this study.

The societies are doing their best, as are us collectors, to bring new blood into this hobby. As mentioned here, it isn't easy for various reasons.

I think that it is very irritating for us folk that are nowhere near any of these shows to hear how little interest there is sometimes. We would kill to be able to attend, and yet those that can, don't.

Perhaps some advertising or research needs to be done into the militaria market and especially the gun collectors and other militaria guys. There seems to be no shortage of young enthusiasts there, and they are the type that might have an interest in swords, or develop an interest.

If it were me, I would maybe send an article on WW2 Japanese swords to the various gun/militaria magazines and see if anyone will publish it, with contact details for the societies and shows. I can see that sparking some interest. Maybe an article on Gendaito/Yasukunito etc? Always worth a try I guess. There are a lot of publications to approach.

As far as the forums go...I think that while they can be a hassle, and so sometimes have the problems mentioned, they are still light years ahead of sitting in a corner with your regular "buddies" and moaning about feet through the door and lack of sales and wasting time on forums. Not quite as constructive

[Robert C. Walker]

Perhaps some advertising or research needs to be done into the militaria market and especially the gun collectors and other militaria guys. There seems to be no shortage of young enthusiasts there, and they are the type that might have an interest in swords, or develop an interest. If it were me, I would maybe send an article on WW2 Japanese swords

 

I study Iaido and there seems to be lots of young folks studying the art, based on a survey done by a Facebook Iaido group. Perhaps show organizers could invite local iaido groups to do demonstrations at shows. They are a group that is already somewhat obsessed with swords and exposure to some real blades could stimulate some interest as collectors. Otherwise, the potential cost of nihonto as a hobby probably scares a lot of younger people away. I certainly never had the extra cash to start a collection when I was young.

[Darcy]

The shows need to be more welcoming to new people.

 

The shows also need to reach out to more communities and advertise. Marc does a great job getting interest up for the Chicago show, but in times of economic turmoil I know many people (including myself) have to pick a show if they are going to attend one and that makes San Francisco the default.

 

That may last for a while longer, but our community tends to be a bit of an inward looking echo chamber, and there are only so many times you can attend these and look at the same rusty swords on the same tables, or the same polished blades that get passed around for years and show up at every show... it's hard to justify the expense to see the same things.

 

What can be worked on is more exhibits, the NBTHK/AB has been good usually with getting out some masterpieces and the NTHK especially good by bringing in fresh and interesting material from Japan on an annual basis.

 

Martial artists can be brought in I think if we invite them in as participants rather than people to support our community.

 

There are many who would enjoy the opportunity to showcase skill with the bow, and skill with the sword.

 

I would go another step and bring in calligraphers, and I would get a sword forging and polishing exhibition on. I would make it an arts of the samurai weekend and I would end up bringing in a whole lot of people who would otherwise never go to any of these on their own.

 

People *are* interested, I've seen outsiders put on similar things and bring in a lot of people with questions. A lot of people just don't know these shows exist.

 

Basically the old sword shows were places where people could find treasures that are now mostly milked out of the system and locked up, they were swap meets where not much money could get you something nice with potential, they were set up at a time when the collecting world was different with a lot of source material out there flowing in.

 

That's drying up, people became established, and a little bit of money doesn't get you much. Even books are expensive.

 

New collectors have often faced issues where they have been taken advantage of by being too trusting, and I look at say six guys who I would point at as my "peers", being about the same age, getting into collecting at the same time with levels of cash that would let them buy multiple Juyo Token at retail prices. Withholding names:

 

A: quit in disgust after trusting dealers who sold him junk, liquidated his collection

B: stopped actively collecting, maintains a couple of good blades

C: stopped collecting out of a mixture of financial pressure and getting into the wrong blades, sold off entire collection

D: still active in collecting pending economic conditions

E: still active in collecting

 

Then there's me... economic conditions prohibit me from getting the kinds of blades that I would like, and forced me to sell off some things I'd rather keep.

 

So of the six of us, only one is really going to buy a blade maybe in the next year, and I'm not even sure of that.

 

So it's pretty hard... the older generation didn't have the financial burden, they had more discoveries, they didn't get sold a blade for $25,000 that was worth $2k for the most part... if they got ripped off it was not at Juyo level pricing.

 

If a way can be found to address all of this, we can reinvigorate the community. Economy will definitely help and heal itself on its own.

[YukouYukimura]

I think that it is very irritating for us folk that are nowhere near any of these shows to hear how little interest there is sometimes. We would kill to be able to attend, and yet those that can, don't.

 

I really couldn't have said it better myself. I would have loved to attend this show.. It really is sad to hear that the attendance wasn't great.. Too many young people these days going to Anime conventions and junk like that instead of trying to learn anything!

[Robert C. Walker]

People *are* interested, I've seen outsiders put on similar things and bring in a lot of people with questions. A lot of people just don't know these shows exist.

 

Darcy,

 

Brilliant response and your perspective is illuminating. A broader focus on Japanese culture, specifically Samurai arts could bring in a wide cross-section of interested people. Exposing people to the beauty of art swords is the key to grabbing their interest. As to the economic realities, hopefully some of them have enough resources to build nice, focused collections.

[raven2]

I have been reading the responses here and I would like to add my perspective as a newbie who attended the show. Yes, I went there with the intention of getting a blade and I did. But I certainly learned a lot by talking to many kind people there and I thought the Tsuba discussion was very interesting and I enjoyed myself very much. I am definitely not young but I do love learning and so I felt the show was very successful for me (not the least because I also got a tsuba and pair of menuki as well as the blade and still stayed within my budget), but I would have to agree that if I had been to a few shows before, this would not have been very interesting for me. I think Darcy's idea's on invigorating the shows with new and varied material, are very good. I have been to other shows (scuba equipment) yearly for the past 25 years and I have found that even with 15,000 attendees, they get very repetitive unless there are new ideas and material. If there is, then I find I have a very good time and feel that they are worth it. Btw, I enjoyed the show so much, my wife and I are going to San Francisco.

[nihonto1001]

Regarding the seeming waning interest in Nihonto.

 

Maybe the whole girl jumping out of the cake thing would work at bringing in more newbies. It might not be the crowd we want handling our art though. I remember seeing some of the the Iaido guys in Chicago, the year before, getting schooled on the proper way to draw a real sword from a collector.

 

I have had to correct people at my table for mis-handling/damaging swords. I fear the wrong advertising might draw in the wrong crowd, maybe drug dealers looking for a new toy, or whatever. Sounds extreme? Go check out a Florida gun show.

 

I feel that new collectors need to be cultivated individually. The best thing we can do for our hobby is to shadow a few worthy interested. After being robbed by Tom Schneider, that is what kept me from giving up on collecting. By the way his website?: http://www.japanesesword.de/?site=&lang=en. It has the same contact address as Tom Schneider and signs his email Thomas. Seems clear to me.

 

As collectors and dealers, we need to exterminate the rats from the community before we can expect increasing interest. They are stealing from us, if not directly, indirectly, by destroying the future market base.

 

I guess we each have a vocation to our hobby, in the same way that many ancient craftsmen worked separately, but collaborated on one finished sword.

Jon

[Rich S]

Trust me, it's not just newbies or iaidoka that mishandle swords.

I've seen very experienced, well known sword dealers handle

peoples swords like so much junk metal.

 

Rich S

[Robert C. Walker]

As a newbie myself I expect that I could use a lesson or two in handling nihonto in a way that wouldn't offend a dealer. I don't expect my Iaido training or my previous training in Chinese swords to provide any basis for inspecting a nihonto appropriately. However, if there is a general decline in interest, and if this is seen as a bad thing by those who are fascinated by nihonto, or make at least a partial living from them, then thinking outside of the traditional box may be helpful. Just because the study of these items is a serious avocation does not mean that people can't have, or imagine, a little fun with it.

[Henry Wilson]

The show that was organized by Chris Bowen and others a while ago in Mini-opolis sounded like a very good idea if I recall. It had a pick and mix of Japanese culture with swords thrown in. What puts me of shows, even the DTI, is that I can't come with my Japanese wife as an afternoon looking a swords is a horribly boring idea for her. She is interested in lots of other aspects of Japanese culture such as kimonos, porcelin, flower arranging, gardens, bonsai, screens, buddhist statues etc just not swords.

 

Also I think if all you dealers were to give away a few freebies or better still, stop trying to buy something for nothing and then sell it for as much they can, people might be more willing to cough up their hard earned cash....

[DirkO]

Personally I think the nihontoworld is not getting the exposure it could get. The internet is a very powerfull medium, but nihontowise it's not used efficiently. (Still love the forum, Brian )

 

For instance, this forum could send out newsletters with upcoming events, maybe even a calendartab ? With over 1000 members, it could reach a few people who would never know otherwise. Might even rekindle their passion if they've lost it.

 

Nihonto-organisations are not that up-to-speed with payment methods. A lot of people can't be bothered to do the international wiretransfers. PayPal or VISA would get more people in.

 

Maybe it would also be a good idea to have a membersite where you can rewatch the lectures given on video ?

 

I know it's very easy to complain, which I'm not ! I think all people involved are doing a tremendous job and I'm very very gratefull for that !!!! These are just a few ideas, nothing more, nothing less...

[Rich S]

While all the above comments and idea are likely correct, I suspect the

primary cause for the decline in Nihonto interest is $$$$$. It's a hellava

lot of expense (starting at over $1000) for a newbie to get into collecting

Nihonto. Basically that's why I've not purchased a sword or tsuba in

several years; the cost is just too $^&% high! Whether you call it art

or whatever, it is still a rich man's hobby (and I ain't rich :-)

 

Rich S

[Henry Wilson]

I suspect the primary cause for the decline in Nihonto interest is $$$$$. It's a hellava lot of expense (starting at over $1000) for a newbie to get into collecting Nihonto.

 

I agree with Rich S. The prices that one reaches at a certain stage of collecting are very hard to justify to oneself and others dear to you for most collectors. My next leap will be a 1,000,000 yen sword and I can think of a hundred better thinks to do with that kind of money than squint under a light bulb and oh and ah at reflections.

 

I know many "high end" collectors who think that dealers and shops are the ruination of this hobby and I tend to agree when I see the mark-up they put on items that mostly are only as valuable as our imagination allows them to be.

[Stephen]

one or two notes, the Mini apples show as well attended by many non Nihonto folk due to the added Japanese attractions, and a fine show it was. The shows that did that years ago SA/Dallas did the same thing. I think after a few years non nihonto folk just stopped coming as they looked for something they had not done in the past for their weekend outing.

 

on the other dealer notes, I remember once while doing the SF show, in town in little Tokyo asking a shop dealer if he knew about any nihonto for sale, it brought a spark to his eyes and we had a nice talk about swords. I invited him to come to the show and the look on his face got sour and shook his head , stating .....NO too many dealers!!!. it was funny and a learning experance ...at the time I wanted to be a dealer more than a student. I had to laugh.

[Ted Tenold]

I agree with Rich S. The prices that one reaches at a certain stage of collecting are very hard to justify to oneself and others dear to you for most collectors.

 

I disagree to a greater extent. The world is full of folks that throw tons of money at the things they enjoy, some of which I see and can only shake my head in disbelief. I watched a guy blaze past me in a souped up Honda yesterday. He must have had $10k worth of crap bolted to a beat up rusted body and patchwork paint and primer, speeding along on brand new alloy wheels with bald tires. He obviously found the money to buy what he wanted.........whatever the hell good it was for, because the car wasn't worth a plug nickle to me. For the money he had wrapped up in it, he could probably had a very nice older BMW in great shape that would drive better than the fiberglass wrapped P.O.S. he seemed so proud of.

 

My next leap will be a 1,000,000 yen sword and I can think of a hundred better thinks to do with that kind of money than squint under a light bulb and oh and ah at reflections.

 

Well, that depends on how good a sword you get for the money Henry. :lol:

 

I know many "high end" collectors who think that dealers and shops are the ruination of this hobby and I tend to agree when I see the mark-up they put on items that mostly are only as valuable as our imagination allows them to be.

 

This art is NO different than any other gendre of interest or collecting. Art has always had this influence, and predators will prey on the uninitiated, uniformed, and foolhardy who's enthusiasm sets them up for disaster. But I'll also add that good swords have always been expensive and it didn't take a dealer getting inbetween to make that price high. Kotetsu charged a *lot* of money for his swords, as did other top smiths of their day. It's no different today either. A copy of the Yamatorige by Ono Yoshimitsu will set you back well over $60,000.00. Even if you find a Mukansa work on the secondary market, they can reach Juyo prices. Where your statement starts to have a bit more impact is when a dealer sells an obviously low end piece for lofty prices. Then it's causing the ruination of the gendre. I remember a militaria collector from years ago commenting "sheep were for shearing". I never did any business with the guy after I heard that. As far as I was concerned, he considered the market a target range and I had no desire to support his mission.

[mdiddy]

Noted gambler Amarillo Slim Preston’s maxim was "you can shear a sheep many times, but skin him only once." While I think selling an obviously low end piece for lofty prices is ‘skinning’ rather than ‘shearing’, I also think dealers represent the best in collecting. Consider the following:

 

Japanese swords are a non-native item in America. They were not generationally developed by Americans as an integral part of society and are unnaturally here. How they got here gives the context to where the hobby is at and where it is headed:

 

1. 1st swords arrive turn of the 19th/20th century – collected by upper/ruling class, a lot in Northeast U.S. Eventually swords ended up in museums (i.e. Boston MFA), minor amount traded around. Low profit potential since most bequeathed to museums.

2. Majority of swords arrive as war spoils (call it what it is) mid 20th century – collected by all classes, low to upper (i.e. gun show to Compton). High profit potential.

3. Swords arrive as purchases from Japan by collectors in late 20th century/21st century – mid to upper classes (who can afford $000’s per sword). Low profit potential (buying at premium).

 

There is no better incentive than $$ and profit potential to generate interest and accelerate a learning curve. The ‘bubble’ of swords that arrived as an outcome of the 2nd World War fueled the learning curve. I’m sure everyone here knows the story. Uninformed soldiers traded swords at extreme discount to relatively uninformed militaria dealers/collectors. Relatively uninformed militaria dealers/collectors traded swords to informed Japanese dealers at extreme discount, highlighting the demand for the resource as well as the need for knowledge of it. Some uninformed militaria dealers/collectors became informed and more successfully mined the resource. Now, the resource is all but exhausted, the market has matured, and prices are relatively inelastic (i.e. static $000’s since mid-80’s against shrinking demand). A few have collected all the resource and knowledge.

 

I am relatively young and not to be cocky but probably represent the ideal initiate for this hobby and the shows – under 30, educated, employed, and thirsty for knowledge and materiel (start marketing your swords to me, please). I’m also lucky in that my family had a Gunto brought back by a family member and not sold to a motel buyer in the 80’s/90’s after considerable deliberation when the advertisements showed up in the local paper. Think about all the similar potential initiates whose families did sell out their blades/relics at deep discount; the non-native non-renewable resource was not naturally available to the next generation. That is where the future of this hobby in this country was won/lost and why interest now wanes. There are no great $$ to be made, the resource is not of practical usage, the resource is not of native significance (i.e. baseball, guns, cars), few know the story/secret of the great treasure hunt, and barriers to entry are stiff ($000’s, no common/collective knowledge of a non-native object, best info is in a non-native language). In my opinion, this hobby dies out in the U.S. as the generation that mined the resource dies out. A scant few will stay interested/become interested, sure, but I would not expect any growth in attendance at shows anytime soon. Ultimately most swords will end up bequeathed to museums or in Japan. The best pieces may continue to trade at Sotheby’s/Christies’s/Bonham’s but that relegates the resource to the upper/ruling class which even more still means swords end up in museums globally or Japan.

 

I don’t want to sound too judgmental toward the generation that mined the resource. The timing was right, the opportunity was there, and they took it. Good for them. I don’t want to sound too judgmental toward antique/militaria dealers either. Dealers are incented by profit, the deeper the better. In addition to my day job, I actively trade antiques including the small collection of swords I have amassed and I’m certainly not interested in taking on loss so other’s can learn. But that’s the exact free-market physics that best incent one to learn in the 1st place and result in an efficiency of learning unmatched by reading books or placards at museums. Dealers’ quest for deep profits (‘shearing’ and ‘skinning’) are actually in the interest of furthering the collective body of knowledge because they more efficiently, through fear of loss, drive the capture and release of the knowledge that dictates the value stream. And they allow that knowledge to filter to a body outside a selected few curators/scholars, especially if they are loose-lipped (objectively, not unlike this forum’s free flow of information). It just sucks that in this case, the resource being traded is non-native and non-renewable. Did anyone see the news today that the Dallas art museum purchased the oldest painting of Michaelangelo’s? Obscene that a Western museum was able to obtain it. Maybe more obscene was the presence of an art-dealer who acquired it for $2MM, challenged with his own body of knowledge the accepted theory the painting was fake, and then sold it to the Dallas museum for an undisclosed amount. Historical threads from this forum detail similar events.

 

This post has now become a thesis so I’m wrapping up. I'm still pretty new to this hobby (like 2 years?) so by all means please do question the above, but I don’t think you need to understand Japanese Swords or their artistic merit/appeal to understand why interest has waned/is waning; as Darcy put it I think you just need to assess economic realities. I personally find the shows enthralling if for no other reason than to talk to the old-timer’s about the great treasure hunt. That alone is worth the price of admission. What it must’ve been like to be at a Baltimore show, early-60’s when the Japanese dealers showed up with suitcases of cash. Maybe telling that story more and to a wider audience would be a starting point for generating interest. After all, that the story is in its final chapter is what I'm arguing is driving low attendance any how.