hddennis Posted July 28, 2022 Report Posted July 28, 2022 After you guys helped me out with my latest Yari purchase I decided to visit the local antique mall and purchased an unexpected surprise there. A new dealer had two swords and other unrelated military items. The first sword was half reproduction mounts on a trashed original blade. The second sword I purchased based on the original tsuka and the blade portion I could see as I couldn't dismount it there. What I found when I got home and removed the handle was totally unexpected. The blade Looked great but what is going on with the tang. It looks like it was butchered yesterday. Would something like this be done in Japan ? Luckily it was so cheap I couldn't leave it as I knew it was worth that but was sad to see something like this done to what could have been a nice survivor. Has anyone ever seen anything like this or know why it would have been done? For the price I paid it doesn't seem like it was done for profit??? Hope to hear your thoughts. Howard Dennis 1 Quote
PNSSHOGUN Posted July 28, 2022 Report Posted July 28, 2022 The Koshirae looks ok but the blade appears to be a metal Tsunagi rather than a real sword. Quote
hddennis Posted July 28, 2022 Author Report Posted July 28, 2022 On 7/28/2022 at 1:08 AM, PNSSHOGUN said: The Koshirae looks ok but the blade appears to be a metal Tsunagi rather than a real sword. Expand With a Hamon? I've never seen that before. Howard Dennis Quote
PNSSHOGUN Posted July 28, 2022 Report Posted July 28, 2022 Will need some closeup shots of the Hamon to be sure. Otherwise the shape/condition of the Nakago is rather alarming, it may even be a Chinese blade. Quote
hddennis Posted July 28, 2022 Author Report Posted July 28, 2022 This is the best picture my meager camera skills could get of the hamon. Howard Dennis Quote
Shugyosha Posted July 28, 2022 Report Posted July 28, 2022 What Did I Just Buy? A hard lesson. The tang has been butchered to make it look like a style found on older blades (looks to be a mash up of kiji momo and tanago bara styles) and perhaps also to fit the tsuka. It might be a genuine blade from the hamon but I don't see any hada in the photo, but that might just be the lighting. If you post pictures of the fittings you might get some better news, but I hope you didn't spend a lot of money on it and I'd try to return it to the dealer and get a refund. Quote
DoTanuki yokai Posted July 28, 2022 Report Posted July 28, 2022 The Tanto looks like Made in Longquan China. I have one similar without the Hamon but they offer different options. I think the tang was butchered to put it in the Koshirae. Edit: I added a picture of my one. 2 Quote
Brian Posted July 28, 2022 Report Posted July 28, 2022 I think it may just be the front piece of a broken naginata. Front piece of something. If it is Japanese (it has a chance of going either way) I would have a professional shorten it more and properly, shape a tang, and turn it into a decent tanto. Assuming it's judged to be Japanese. Quote
Brian Posted July 28, 2022 Report Posted July 28, 2022 I think Christian's theory above is more plausible. Quote
NewB Posted July 28, 2022 Report Posted July 28, 2022 A picture of the hada will answer all questions... J Quote
PNSSHOGUN Posted July 28, 2022 Report Posted July 28, 2022 Christian has it, the Hamon looks to be oil quenched modern steel. Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted July 28, 2022 Report Posted July 28, 2022 Isn't the offset machi a sign of Chinese fakery? Did the Japanese make offset machi, other than Type 95s? Quote
PNSSHOGUN Posted July 28, 2022 Report Posted July 28, 2022 There is the old style of Kiji Momo that had a step/bulge in it, sometimes found on very old Tachi. Kajiyama Yasunori used this style on his later Yasukuni-To. Quote
hddennis Posted July 28, 2022 Author Report Posted July 28, 2022 Well Thanks to everyone for responding. With no visible hada it would seem that the opinion of it being a modern Chinese copy is the correct answer. What really scares me is how good they appear to be getting at replicating antique swords. The geometry of this blade is flawless for an ancient naginata polished down to it's last glory. The only giveaway seems to be the lack of hada and that terrible tang which I believe must have looked a lot better when the Chinese smith was done but was trashed when someone else ground it to fit the tsuka. For those worried that I was ripped off I only gave $300 for it and I believe the Koshirae was worth that. Thanks again for all the responses. I can always count on you guys to further my education on this addiction we all suffer from. Howard Dennis 2 Quote
Brian Posted July 28, 2022 Report Posted July 28, 2022 John, let's not mislead the guys. This is NOT trying to be that. This is just a butcher job, and a homemade modification with no clue. Most people will never see a kiji momo blade. Yes Bruce. They are supposed to be aligned. Quote
hddennis Posted July 29, 2022 Author Report Posted July 29, 2022 Well it's taken me several days of hunting but I finally found it. When you guys said the blade was probably Chinese I figured if it was I could probably find one like it for sale somewhere online and this morning I found one on eBay. Longquan China manufactured just like DoTanuki yokai said. My problem was I haven't kept up with what the Chinese were making so the last Chinese blades I was exposed to were very crudely made, guess that's changed! I was in a rush, out of town and looking at a dirty oily blade I couldn't clean nor dismount so based on the old mounts and what I thought I saw I grabbed it. Luckily the old koshirae will make the lesson less painful. Thanks Again for all your help, Howard Dennis 2 1 Quote
Brian Posted July 29, 2022 Report Posted July 29, 2022 The mounts, if genuine...and they do appear to be, look decent and worth most of that value. Quote
Nihontocollector752 Posted July 29, 2022 Report Posted July 29, 2022 Beg to differ, those mounts don't look convincing, closer pics perhaps? Quote
hddennis Posted July 29, 2022 Author Report Posted July 29, 2022 On 7/29/2022 at 5:31 PM, Nihontocollector752 said: Beg to differ, those mounts don't look convincing, closer pics perhaps? Expand While I have no doubt whatsoever over the tsuka I would welcome opinions on the tsuba. It's appears to be old iron with some type of thin copper wrap on the rim. It is magnetic as a magnet sticks to it. My pictures seem to give a sort of gold or brassy look to areas on the faces but it is actually very shiny black scale as if the tsuba was in a very hot fire at some point. Quote
AntiquarianCat Posted July 30, 2022 Report Posted July 30, 2022 I agree with the Longquan location: It’s a dead ringer for one I grabbed to tinker with so I wouldn’t risk my nihonto. It came with an acid “polish”. I’m certain this one also had its hamon “enhanced” by ferric chloride. That’s why it’s so flat and bright, almost painted on. Your fittings are nice looking though. The tsuba might be cast though. wrought iron tsuba will have luster and sharp details and changes in elevation. Cast will look dull and often have a grainy kind of look and lack sudden sharp elevation changes. The attached tsuba is an example of what I mean. If you hold your tsuba against directional light the less worn areas should have a kind of luster akin to the satin luster of old hammer struck coins. Quote
hddennis Posted July 30, 2022 Author Report Posted July 30, 2022 AntiquarianCat, Thanks for your response. I'm pretty sure this tsuba isn't cast. I base that belief on it's current condition. As I mentioned I believe it has gone through a high temperature fire based on the flaky scale on it's surface. Every casting I've ever seen doesn't show this scaly surface after being burnt. Howard Dennis Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted August 1, 2022 Report Posted August 1, 2022 For my 1 cent- worth, the ito is wrapped in alternating directions which is proper for Japanese work. The fakers usually fold the ito in the same direction along the tsuka. Quote
Paz Posted August 3, 2022 Report Posted August 3, 2022 There is a way to avoid this. Especially with Chinese trying hard to replicate antique blades. Buy NBTHK papered. Until the Chinese find a way to replicate them too. Then we're truly f*****d 1 Quote
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