And then you die !!!!!

[drbvac]

This was on the board a long time ago and then I wasn't as close to the possibility of no longer being among the living. That said it is a real problem for collectors of anything as to what happens when you are gone?  I have spent a long time and not an inconsiderable amount of money on Nihonto and my wife doesn't even know what any of them are worth. I do not see any of my children or grandsons really interested enough in the blades to take the time to learn of them and proper care if I should leave them to any of them. I don't want them left to a museum to be put in storage and never see the light of day again or end up all rusted to hell and worthless. I certainly don't want my wife to be at the mercy of any unscrupulous dealers or individuals who would offer her a fraction of their worth, nor do I want to sell them yet. I really don't own them as such - just paying the rent on them and caring for them as they should be. 

 

Maybe a market for dealers to pre-buy collections at a fair value and when notified of my passing the amount can be sent to my estate and the blades shipped off all together? I certainly want someone who is willing to pay a fair price and to continue taking care as someone has for the last several hundred years. It is quite a conundrum for us "older" enthusiasts for sure. I would not expect my spouse to list and sell them one by one and ship them all over the place - not fair to them and she is already annoyed at how many I have bought and sold. If she was to get into that and figured what I spent and possibly she will lose on their sale - I would be in hell for an extra couple of years.  Should I make a list of what they cost and the date of purchase or what they should fetch at sale and say = do not open till I am gone?

 

Has anyone else figured a way to assure they continue to be cared for and not losing a fortune in the process

[Katsujinken]

You cannot know where the market will be when you pass on. The money is spent and the blades will be worth what the market will support. Better to leave her the names and numbers of a dealer or two you trust. 
 

I’ve told my wife that should something happen to me anytime in the next 30 years my Juyo blade is to be donated to the Metropolitan Museum of Art if and only if the museum will agree to a minimum number of days of display per year in writing. That number is to be determined. :-P
 

Barring that she is to contact Mike Yamasaki and sell it. :-)

 

Anything non-Juyo is to also be sold through Mike. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

It always seems appropriate to identify with collector friends if there is anything they would really like to add to their collection, with that comes some sentimental attachments. After that I'm sure one of the reputable dealers here would be the best place to go.

[ChrisW]

My plan, is if I get to be fortunate enough to get on up in years, to make sure I have already sold everything but the most precious to me so that I minimize the burden of dealing with what is left behind. Anything else will have a tag on it with documents that include instructions on how to properly sell it to someone who'll appreciate it and give my descendants the most value out of it.

[John A Stuart]

If my heirs don't appreciate my collection they can sell it however they like. I will be beyond caring, my legacy is in their genes for good or evil. Don't be too attached, it is just temporary. John

[Bruce Pennington]

Interesting idea of approaching dealers for a first-right-to-buy.  I'm not a dealer, so I could be wrong about this, but dealers aren't going to give you market rates for your collection.  They have to sell at market rates, so their going to need to buy your swords below market rate in order to make a profit. 

 

I've make a page of notes for my wife (or daughter, if we both kick off at the same time) with the contact info of a couple of collector friends that can help/advise when I'm gone.

[Matsunoki]

I’ve also pondered this as years advance. Luckily my wife is pretty clued up (assuming I leave first) but basically  there are a few options -

1. leave it all in a mess and don’t worry about it. It’ll get sorted by someone somehow.

or

MAKE SURE EVERYTHING IS FULLY RECORDED AND  LABELLED WITH ALL DESCRIPTIONS AND RELEVANT INFO. USE A SPREADSHEET AS WELL IF POSSIBLE….AND THEN…….

2. Sell to friends/fellow collectors. This will probably get your heirs the best price but they won’t buy everything and that means leftovers have to be dealt with. Also selling the best bits like this will make the collection less attractive to auctioneers. 

3. try and sell to dealers….but see Bruce’s comments above. You won’t get  full market value (but how do you determine what that is anyway?) BUT you might still get more than option 4 given the auctioneers fees

4. Get a qualified arms auctioneer in and let them handle it all but negotiate a good deal re their sellers commission. In the UK you’d get them down to 5% especially if you allow stuff to be sold with no reserve which is risky but then the market will decide anyway. The internet and online sales have made it virtually impossible for dealers or “groups of friends” to “ring“ the items.

5. Sell everything while still alive, buy a Porsche, an Aston Martin and a Lamborghini and have a blast for a time.…..

Just a few thoughts…..we don’t own anything really do we?

Colin

[Baba Yaga]

16 hours ago, drbvac said:

This was on the board a long time ago and then I wasn't as close to the possibility of no longer being among the living. That said it is a real problem for collectors of anything as to what happens when you are gone? 

 

Yep, you are correct. 3 of the old time collectors I learned from have since past. 90% of the collectors at the SF sword show 30 years ago were gray haired pot belly gents. I found these people via dialed up interweb with 1mb storage. I took my son to the SF sword show when he was 7, now he's a well known attorney in CA. He's been to Japan a few times, so he knows what's what and what everything is worth via my estate. I collect a lot more than just Nihonto. If one has a substantial collection, everything should be listed on an insurance ridder. 

 

Dealers are the last choice unless it's a fire sale and everyone knows what that means, Last note, if you get divorced, she gets half of everything. LOL  

[SteveM]

16 hours ago, Katsujinken said:

Better to leave her the names and numbers of a dealer or two you trust. 

 

I think this is excellent advice. When this kind of thread came up previously, this is the advice that made the most sense to me, especially when you have heirs who are indifferent to nihonto. Leave a record of what you paid for the whole collection, and leave your wife or your most financially switched on kid with the name of a trusted dealer. This way they have a rough idea of the value, and who can realize that value. 

 

Of course John is also right; once you are gone, the swords are in the hands of providence. It no longer matters if my mumei wakizashi is worth $5k or $500 or $50. But still, I don't want it to get dumped off to a pawn shop where its going to be manhandled by a bunch of people who have no clue what it is. I don't care if my heirs get the highest possible value out of the collection, but I do want the swords to go to someone who will appreciate them, and if not my heirs than hopefully with another collector through a dealer. 

 

A museum is a nice idea, but as has been discussed many times on this board, unless the museum has a Japanese sword specialist, the collection runs the risk of collecting dust and rust in a museum warehouse, and eventually getting sold off by the museum. (Michael's idea of donating to a major museum with conditions, is also a good idea to pursue, but likely only possible with a Jūyō piece). 

 

I don't understand why a dealer would be "the last choice", and if I were one of the dealers who contribute their knowledge and time and expertise to this board I think I would find that comment to be a bit insulting.

 

 

[ChrisW]

With the cheap items that may not sell well? My suggestion is to use them to get new collectors into this hobby.

Sell them at modest/low prices with a full and honest explanation to the new collector of the item's potential. Last month, I was going to sell a mumei wakizashi to a father whose son was really interested in nihonto. The blade itself was no catch and fairly abused, and would have made no financial sense to restore. I was upfront about that with him. And when it came time for him to see it and other potential blades, to my surprise, he had brought his son! His son looked at several of my blades and had his heart set on a slightly more expensive wakizashi than the original one I had proposed for a potential new collector. It was a modest blade in shirasaya and reasonable polish with a rather nice gold and shakudo habaki, mid-1700's blade. I could see how much it meant to him, so I knocked about 30% off my price on this blade so it was affordable for him. Taught him all about the blade, related terminology, and how to care for it that I could. And now we may very well have a new ITK member! So even though I ate a little bit of the profit on that blade, I feel pretty good about getting someone new into nihonto.

[Baba Yaga]

5 minutes ago, SteveM said:

 

I don't understand why a dealer would be "the last choice", and if I were one of the dealers who contribute their knowledge and time and expertise to this board I think I would find that comment to be a bit insulting.

 

 

 

No disrespect meant, but "dealers" operate in a resale market. Buy very low and sell very high. 

[Alban L]

Or same for cars dealers, buy at a fair price for sellers who don't want to spend time on it, and put it in conditions to sell it again. Seems fair to me, most swords would not have come to us without dealers.

[Baba Yaga]

As my advise given on this very forum months ago, America has announced today that we are in the worst recession in the last 40 years and the plummet down has just started. Savvy Business people make more money in poor markets.  This is the market in which I operate. Sounds coarse, but emotions is a business killer.    

[Matsunoki]

If we are truly worried about who gets to own our possessions, who will take care of them, will they achieve the price they deserve etc etc then really the best person to be in control of that process is you. 
You can keep one or two favourite or treasured pieces but then rest assured that you have done the right thing for the remainder. Your heirs then only have a very few things to handle and you can leave precise instructions.

……and strange as it may seem, you may not miss them that much

……possessions can be an albatross around our necks sometimes

My wife and I have recently sold our entire netsuke collection and Meiji metalwork collection and cloisonné collection and Satsuma collection. Honestly- it was a cathartic experience and we just kept a few modest sentimental things.……and truthfully, we don’t miss any of it although we have loved it for many many years. We sold the items, not the memories.

……trouble is now I’m back collecting swords again.

Worth thinking about?

Colin.

[Surfson]

I'm planning to take mine with me.

[Matsunoki]

13 minutes ago, Surfson said:

I'm planning to take mine with me.

Damn, didn’t think of that. Let us all know how you get on.

[ChrisW]

35 minutes ago, Surfson said:

I'm planning to take mine with me.

Let us know where you're buried, alright? Would be a shame to not pay respects to... the items.. 

 

Anyone got a good shovel? 

[Baba Yaga]

24 minutes ago, ChrisW said:

Let us know where you're buried, alright? Would be a shame to not pay respects to... the items.. 

 

Anyone got a good shovel? 

 

That may sound hilarious, but it's true. I have a friends great uncle who was busted for grave robbing locally. Our DA just busted a ring of local coroners who have been robbing the dead for the last 30 years. The whole coroners office was in on it. 

[ChrisW]

Graverobbing has always been a problem. In some countries though, it was a family occupation or even a social caste. If you look into India, there was an actual social caste whose job was to "liberate" things from graves.

And oddly enough, America has had a pretty profound problem with it historically and currently. Especially on the east coast and deep south. There's a reason why things like "mort cages" were made!

[Michaelr]

Knowing in advance when you may pass could be either a blessing or a curse depending on how that individual feels about it. I think your original question goes the same way. There is no right or wrong, no best way or worst way, only the way that makes YOU feel good about what you decided. Here is my two cents. I have been a collector for now over 55 years. I have only been into Japanese Swords for a very short 10 years. In the past 20 years I have only purchased what I like and what I want to keep for myself and for my enjoyment. With that being said I am the most proud of my collection when I am sharing it with others that also appreciate it. So for me if I was given a time frame for my own passing I would pick out a couple of the items that pleased me the most and set them aside. While I had the time I would then put my other treasures up for sale in places like this Great Forum, where other like minded people can appreciate the pictures, comment on my treasures and hopefully be as impressed with a few items to purchase them. If I were passing nothing would give me more pleaser than to be able to pass something on to someone, like the boy mentioned above, and see the same look that was on my face when I was given the opportunity to become the caretaker of a Great Item. As for the few items that I saved for myself it wouldn’t matter what happened to them after I passed. I still had them to enjoy right up to the end. I could only hope an request from my survivors to try and pass them on to someone like me   To me after doing this for so long there is nothing better for me that to see that look in someone else’s eyes and being able to be a part of it. You can’t do that after you are gone and If your survivor dosent want your stuff they will never see that in the new owners eyes nor will they care. Pass it on to someone like yourself while  you can, it will give you almost the same enjoyment as it did/ does to own it. Good luck with what ever you decide and after you have thought long and hard to make YOUR decision DONT LOOK BACK, it will have been the right one.  
  Ps also if you do this while you can you will only be leaving your loved ones money from the sale. No one will have to know how much you spent, lost , or made and they definitely won’t be saying “ that old guy was crazy” everyone likes cash

    MikeR

[RichardP]

It seems like we’re discussing:

 

1)  the fiduciary obligation to one’s family to ensure that an art investment is recouped post-mortem, and

2)  the duty owed to the art object itself, having voluntarily undertaken the responsibility of being its temporary guardian.

#1 might be optional, but #2 seems ethically unavoidable. 
 

 

 

[ChrisW]

39 minutes ago, RichardP said:

It seems like we’re discussing:

 

1)  the fiduciary obligation to one’s family to ensure that an art investment is recouped post-mortem, and

2)  the duty owed to the art object itself, having voluntarily undertaken the responsibility of being its temporary guardian.

#1 might be optional, but #2 seems ethically unavoidable. 
 

 

 

The second should always come first and foremost in my book!

[Nihonto Chicken]

Well, in a few billion years our sun will balloon into a red giant and turn the entire earth's surface into lava and perhaps after that subsume the planet, dissociating it entirely to the atomic level.  Maybe before then a few humanoids may escape to other planets or their moons and then on to other solar systems, but likely will be taking few nihonto along for the ride.  So we cannot avoid the inevitable end, only perhaps delay it for some amount of time.  

 

That said, it would seem esthetically advantageous to keep good blades out of pawn shops, also financially responsible to obtain decent monetary return upon transfer for the sake of one's heirs.  So, make arrangements for a knowledgeable and (hopefully) trustworthy entity to sell the items after your passing, or sell them yourself beforehand, risking selling them too soon or leaving it until too late.  Well, life is a non-reproducible experiment.  Or, if you prefer, life's a bitch and then you die.  Whatever, you won't get out of it alive.  Take care, choose wisely.  

[Brian]

To me, the logical thing is either send to a decent auction house, or consign with a dealer at a pre-arranged price. That would consist of a commission on the sale price, maybe 25 or 30%?
That way the dealer doesn't outlay money beforehand and can afford to pay more. Also, there are many auction houses that you can fine tune your distribution. Even here in SA there are ones that would do better with militaria and ones that I would only send the better stuff to. Just my take on it.

[Oldman]

Having recently gone through the process of sorting and distribution of the parents' belongings I strongly suggest that responsible collectors should, at a minimum, be sure to clearly identify each item of significant value with; description, source acquired from, amount paid and value at the time you are cataloguing them. That will at least give your family, or other estate administrator, notice that the items have special value and some idea of how much that amounts to. And some of that information will be relevant in valuing the estate for purposes of probate, if needed. Of course discussing this ahead of time with your prospective heirs would be appropriate, as would perhaps some further instructions as to best means of disposing of items family members are not interested in.

[Alex A]

Forget dealers and auctions, 

 

Pretty sure the folks you leave behind will be aware of the time you have spent on this forum

 

When your gone, tell them to join this forum or give them your log in details.

 

Explain to folk that here that you have popped your clogs and are wanting to sell (if thats their choice)

 

No doubt they will be inundated with enquiries.

When Covid killed my job a few years ago and had to sell some swords, surprised at the number of private enquiries. Not just what i had listed but folk looking for all kinds of stuff. "Have you got this?" or "Have you got that?" 

 

Reminded me of vultures a circling, but i suppose thats just life and understandable.

 

You will achieve better prices here than from a dealer.

[vajo]

I was thinking about this collector problem too and came to the conclusion.

 

The swords found you.

The swords are much older than i and they overlive wars, disasters and catastrophic events.

The swords will find a way. 

I made two collection books with description, pictures and buying prices of every piece. Thats all i can do. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Matsunoki]

Perfect. Brilliant idea. Just like some of the old collections….Tomkinson etc. 

[Alex A]

Nice Chris!.

 

Also whilst your here,  i will buy the Tadakuni back should you check out 

 

And if your reading this, that goes for the Sadayoshi too!

[vajo]

I will make a notice in the book Alex