Were ninja-to used historically?

[Oaken]

I'm sorry if the questions sounds amateurish but, I have been confused about this for a long time. So:
-Were ninja-to ever used historically? 
-Were they ever used with the 'techniques' ninjutsu dojos claim they were used with- such as holding the sageo in the mouth and 'probing' with the sheath, pushing the sword into the ground and standing on it, etc.? 
-When do we first see ninja-to begin to appear? 
-What is the earliest historical account we have of ninja-to?

I'm sorry for asking so much! I'm simply curious. 

[Wolfmanreid]

I defer to those with more expertise than I, but the “classic” depictions of the black clad ninja assassins date to the mid-late Edo period and owe as much to Japanese theater and popular culture as anything else. Even in the famous manga woodcuts of Hokusai and Kunisada which show ninjutsu and black clad ninjas they are all carrying typically curved katanas and/or wakizashis.  Plenty of almost straight bladed nihonto from the Kanbun era out there although I don’t think any that I’ve seen would be called “ninjato”. 
 

In short I think the modern popular culture image of the appearance and equipment of ninja is mostly cut from whole cloth in the late 18th and 19th century, was further elaborated upon in the 20th and bears little to no resemblance to the Sengoku period clans in Iga and Koga provinces.

 

It’s rather comparable to if our entire historical understanding of pirates was based on Howard Pyle’s wonderful late 19th century illustrations, the Gilbert and Sullivan play “Pirates of Penzance” and one or two vague references in actual period legal reporting to the hanging of a pirate crew somewhere…

[Wolfmanreid]

 

Wikipedia actually has a detailed explanation of the historical background of ninjato. They appeared in the 1950s…

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninjatō

[Rivkin]

Surprisingly with all the nonsense that goes with the ninja subject, there are swords which were supposedly ordered by the heads of some of the most recognized schools or those heavily associated with such families. 

Standard swords, on a straight-short-heavy side.

We are talking about Edo period here.

[Oaken]

27 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

Surprisingly with all the nonsense that goes with the ninja subject, there are swords which were supposedly ordered by the heads of some of the most recognized schools or those heavily associated with such families. 

Standard swords, on a straight-short-heavy side.

We are talking about Edo period here.

Would said swords have been considered ninjato, then? 

[Rivkin]

Not for anime purposes, but these are the swords that actual clans carried.

For example, Hattori were real people with real swords - they are just not what you see in movies.

[IBot]

Oh dear!  This old chestnut. As Reid says, the black clad guys were theatrical staff dressed in black, who by convention were invisible, whose tasks were to arrange the principle actors costumes and similar tasks. Were there 'secret techniques used by 'adepts' ? Yes of course - every school of martial arts had their so-called secret techniques. 

Ian Bottomley

 

 

 

[John A Stuart]

What was the function of shinobi or ninja? To gather intelligence (movement, number, direction, supplies etc.) and disrupt (sabotage) enemy logistics. Wearing a night suit and carrying identifying gear would hardly be clandestine. Common sense. John

[Fuuten]

 

Quote

22 minutes ago, John A Stuart said:

What was the function of shinobi or ninja?

 

What about assassination? Weren't those type of sneak attacks the reason for that squeaking floor to be devised? (iirc; nightingale floor).

 

And only lightly related but yesterday or the day before, 8 happened to glance the latest members area and saw that a new member joined the board under the tagname ninja. I thought that was surprising as I would've guessed (after 6000+ registrations), I would've bet on it being amongst the first to be used/claimed.

 

🌃🌌

🏃💨

[Shugyosha]

If you can see the tag name, he's not a real ninja.

[Jacques D.]

Was not a ninja but a samurai : 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenshin_Shōden_Katori_Shintō-ryū#:~:text=The Tenshin Shōden Katori Shintō,that it was about 1480.

 

Ninjato never existed, point

 

just for fun  (Hatsumi is a crook)

 

 

 

[DTM72]

I remember Oda Nobunaga fighting a mountain clan in Iga that fought unconventional warfare and were ninja like, but maybe not necessarily ninja. See article below.

 

https://www.thoughtco.com/the-greatest-ninja-battle-195580

 

 

[Oaken]

19 hours ago, Rivkin said:

Not for anime purposes, but these are the swords that actual clans carried.

For example, Hattori were real people with real swords - they are just not what you see in movies.

I see. But we don't have concrete evidence proving that shinobi would actually ever favor a certain style of sword- i.e the ninja-to- over katana? 
I'm really sorry if I still appear to not understand I just want to be sure. 

[ChrisW]

3 minutes ago, RestingBirchFace said:

I see. But we don't have concrete evidence proving that shinobi would actually ever favor a certain style of sword- i.e the ninja-to- over katana? 
I'm really sorry if I still appear to not understand I just want to be sure. 

Ninja-to as you understand never existed. Yes, there were swords that had little or no sori, but they were not made expressly for the purposes of clandestine operations (spy and assassination work). Ninja as actually existed used the same sort of weapons their samurai counterparts would use most of the time. At least, that's what I've always heard and read.

[Jacques D.]

I would like to see a Japanese historical source stating that ninja clans existed.  In my humble opinion Hollywood is not innocent in the birth of this myth. A spy is a spy and can be recruited from all walks of life.

[IBot]

A prolific author of my acquaintance wrote and published a book on this subject, no doubt inspired by a publisher who thought it would be a good seller. What resulted and all the author could discover were detailed accounts of clandestine events. All of the Japanese illustrations of these incidents show the participants wearing conventional armour and using regular weapons. The only black-clad guys shown in the whole book are two theatre staff (?) watching a couple 'in fragante delicto'. As has been said above, the whole concept is a product of imaginative minds . 

Ian Bottomley

[Toryu2020]

Jacques

Please read into the Iga wars under Oda Nobunaga - spy clans? Yes? Deadly Black Pajamas? No...

[Jacques D.]

Thomas  

Please, read this conclusion of a study by Turnbull 

 

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I therefore conclude that the authenticity of the Iga Kōka ninja tradition fails against all three of the suggested criteria in terms of the existence of secret warfare, the elite practitioners of it, and its narrow geographical location. Undercover operations were performed throughout Japanese history but were carried out by skilled warriors who did not belong to a hereditary tradition. Iga and Kōka did not have a monopoly, nor is there any evidence for a transmission from there to other provinces after 1581. In fact the opposite is true. If the presence of shinobi in an account indicates that secret warfare is taking place, then Iga and Kōka are remarkable not for how many references there are to them but for how few. The ninja of Iga and Kōka therefore present a classic example of an invented tradition in terms of Hobsbawm and Ranger’s definition. There is a deliberate “attempt to establish continuity with a suitable historic past” whereby ancient records have been re-interpreted and exaggerated to reinforce a highly localized understanding of a military phenomenon (Hobsbawn and Ranger 1983, p. 1). Hobsbawn and Ranger (1983) also identified the “use of ancient materials to construct invented traditions of a novel type for quite novel purposes” (p. 4). This seems to be what has happened at Shimabara. I do not however believe that the Iga-Kōka ninja myth or the modern cult that developed from it represent a total fabrication. All invented traditions have a basis in fact, no matter how tenuously the links may be made between the developed tradition and recorded history. In Iga and Kōka there must have been some genuine belief in a unique local expertise that was bolstered by folk memories and old soldiers’ tales, and the best that can be said for their plagiarism of other people’s exploits is that it supports one great ninja stereotype: they were very good at stealing things! Yet even if the Iga-Kōka ninja cult draws upon little more than the manipulation of folk memories and historical records, any tradition that takes shape in about 1620 and continues to the present day is worthy of more attention and respect as a cultural property than is commonly given to other aspects of the samurai tradition. As the Iga and Kōka ninja tradition is older than the 47 Rōnin and even predates bushidō it should not be dismissed but celebrated as Japan’s oldest martial invention and, through its modern cult-like manifestation, as Japan’s greatest martial fantasy

 

[Matsunoki]

Throughout history, which is littered with constant human violence and warfare, “specialists” have always existed no matter what culture or era ….and they continue to do so today……Rangers, SAS, SBS, MI5, CIA etc. It is entirely reasoanble to assume that the same thing happened in feudal Japan. Reading through this thread much credence is given to “opinions” which seem to be taken as fact. Quotations from published literature….which are again simply opinions.  “Ninja-to didn’t exist” “ninja invented in 1950s” etc etc 

The type of weapon you carry depends on what you are trying to achieve and the situation in which you wish to achieve it. A long katana has obvious drawbacks in a confined space, a yari is tricky if climbing walls etc etc

Unless we were there we can only speculate and keep an open mind (in my “opinion!”)

However (and only for entertainment) I would like to describe a sword I owned many years ago that now, looking back with a little bit more knowledge, had some features that could align to what is sometimes perceived as a Ninja-to.

The blade was about 20” long,  totally straight, stout with a simple but strong gunome hamon. Ko kissaki. The  saya was matt black lacquer with a definite slightly rough texture. It had two kurigata….one as usual and one at bottom of saya. The tsuba was small a rounded  diamond shape in black iron with no decoration. No kogai , kozuka etc. the short tsuka had black same, black Ito and black iron fuchikashira. Although short, the tsuka/nakago had two mekugi ana. Back then the big question was always “is it signed” so an operation to remove the tsuka commenced. It took a long time and much hammering with wooden blocks etc It was unsigned but ubu but had been securely glued into the tsuka with what appeared to be a type of lacquer….hence the trouble removing it. It was a grubby total sleeper so not tampered with until it fell into my hands.

If I was climbing a wall or something similar this sword worn securely over my back (two kurigata)and easy to draw (straight blade) would fit the bill maybe.

Who knows. Wish I had taken photos back then. You’ll have to use your imagination.

All the best.

Colin

 

 

 

 

 

[DoTanuki yokai]

Sounds interesting Colin but i whould think that the lacquer in the tsuka could be Matsuyani instead as it would be more common in my opinion and one more thing, i think it is easier to draw a curved blade.

 

[Matsunoki]

Hi Christian

please excuse my ignorance…..but what is matsuyani?  I’ve not encountered that before…..but there is a lot I’ve not encountered before!!

I still reckon a straight shortish blade worn across the back would be easier…..no chance of snagging or encountering friction on a curved saya……but then again I’m not a Ninja😊😊😊 so what do I know ?

thanks for looking, 

[DoTanuki yokai]

Matsuyani is hard black/brown stuff made from pine tree resin, it gets soft when you make it warm and very hard when cold. 

I have seen it used to make a better fit for Kashira and the wood or holding Kogatana in the Kozuka and other things.

 

I have no pistons in my arms i think circular motions are easier for the human body. 

Making it easier to draw is one of the advantages Katana have because of the curve.