Tsuba and the sword "draw"

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

Just something interesting.  In Iaido (the drawing of the sword-Nukitsuke) we are taught to draw the sword (Iaito) by placing our left hand around the top of the saya and our thumb against the “ura” of the tsuba.  The right hand is placed around the tsuka. Then you push the tsuba with your thumb to “unlock” the habaki from the saya.  So, the sword is now ready to be “drawn” from the saya.

 

Now, there are some very nice tsuba out there that are very delicately made.  However, would (or even could) these tsuba be used to actually draw the sword from the saya?  Several beautiful tsuba seem to have large open “spaces” at the top of the tsuba that would be very difficult to place one’s thumb against to perform “Nukitsuke”.  Personally, I have never used an open type tsuba in Iaido.  Are there any Iaido practitioners out there that prefer to use this kind of tsuba.  Is it more difficult to use this kind of tsuba?  Would it be practical in the the Muromachi and Edo periods and used on a sword, or would it just be placed on the sword for “display” purposes?

 

Anyway, have included a couple of pictures of “open type” tsuba that I could find just for explanatory purposes. 

 

With respect,

Dan

[Toryu2020]

I would say that an open work tsuba would still have the "integrity" to allow you to break the seal on the koiguchi and not cause any issue. If you are practised then I expect you wouldnt be putting your thumb thru any holes. Of course there is more than one way to break that seal and it does not involve the thumb so much.

 

I think a more interesting question is why do we not see more tsuba with wear at the 2 O'clock point on the sides of tsuba?

 

-t

MJER

[mas4t0]

Hi Dan,

 

I have a sukashi tsuba mounted on the sword I use for Iaido, it's never caused any problems.

[Katsujinken]

Most people I know rest the pad of their thumb on the rim of the tsuba to unlock the tsuba from the habaki (as opposed to the “plate” surface). This offers more control and allows you to pull the blade back into the saya if needed. 
 

That said, I would probably prefer a plate tsuba to a sukashi tsuba if there’s a chance another sword might hit it!

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all,

 

So, when I perform Nukitsuke the knuckle of my left thumb is over the mimi of the tsuba to “lock” the sword in the saya.  My right hand is on the tsuka.  Then as I move forward my thumb moves from the mimi of the tsuba to the ura (hira) of the tsuba (below the mimi) and pushes against it to “unlock” the sword from the saya.

If I make an error in my movements before the sword is drawn, I just use my right hand on the tsuka to move the sword back into the saya.  I do not put my thumb back over the mimi of the tsuba to move the sword back into the saya. 

 

I don’t know, maybe I have been performing nukitsuke wrong all these years.  Hey, that is always a possibility!  My iaido sensei (a “long” time ago) was from Japan and wore a “old” daisho of “live blades” (shinken).

 

I just think that some tsuba are more conducive to be used for nukitsuke than other tsuba (if the thumb is used).  Of course, I do not know how samurai were trained on “the draw”.  Perhaps some used their thumb to “unlock” the sword and others just used their hand on the tsuka to draw the sword out of the saya (no thumb needed!).

 

Personally, I could not see using the tsuba (shown below – there are many more pictures of this type of tsuba “out there”) for performing “my type” of nukitsuke.

Anyway, just some more interesting stuff in this fantastic “world of tsuba!

 

With respect,

Dan

 

[Toryu2020]

I would point out two things -

1. You're not doing it wrong - there were 700 han so probably 700 different ways to do the simplest of actions.

2. You own post is evidence that sukashi tsuba were not an issue - afterall if they were a problem they would not have been so very popular...

-t

[Katsujinken]

Thomas hit the nail on the head!

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

You’ve got to be kidding me!  700 different ways to “draw the sword” (do the “simplest of actions”- as stated in a previous post to this thread)!  Hey, it is a sword in a saya.  Probably only about 2 ways to “draw it” from the saya.  Remember, we are talking about Japan where most all things (including the “basics” of martial arts) are probably done in a very “specific” and standardized manner.

 

You know, not all tsuba were made for combat.  I have read where many samurai had 3 or 4 tsuba for each of their daisho.  Maybe a “combat” tsuba.  A tsuba for “everyday carry”.  A tsuba for royal and court functions.  And maybe a tsuba to reflect their “clan”.

 

It is my understanding that in a “court” or “royal” setting the drawing of a sword could result in the “beheading” of the person that drew the sword.  What better way to keep something like that from happening then to mount a tsuba on a sword that would make it “difficult” or “challenging” to draw the sword from the saya??  It would show the “nobles” that this samurai is only carrying his daisho for “show” and respect (as I have read that all samurai had to “by law” carry daisho).  And it would give the samurai an opportunity to “show off” his most delicate and beautiful tsuba.

 

A previous post stated “hit the nail on the head”.  I think the nail was missed entirely!  Hey, but these are just my opinions (and everyone has their own opinions)!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Katsujinken]

Dan, I think what Thomas is saying is that there are many, many iaido/kenjutsu/battodo ryuha, and across them there are differences big and small in style and technique. 

The larger point is that debating how one draws the sword has little to do with the design of tsuba. Every tsuba has an edge, which means it’s generally easy to unlock the habaki from the saya. 
 

Design choices have much more to do with function and historical context. 

[Toryu2020]

Dan 

There is more under the sun than is dreamt of in your philosophy. I appreciate Michael's comments as he clearly understood my point. "Standardization" in martial arts is a modern thing. In the past one was to create advantage was to create differences, the often became "secrets" held only within small groups and passed orally.

 

We must get together sometime, I can show you how to draw a sword worn across the back, how to draw a sword using your obi or how to draw a sword using the kojiri. None of these techniques looks anything like your standard draw in ZNKR Iai.

 

I would hope that if you're new to a subject, when someone tells you something you haven't heard before your first reaction is to ask questions and not to laugh...

 

-t 

MJER 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Toryu2020]

Here's a question maybe for Ford Hallam - obviously poor patination on thos modern tsuba but why do we not see this kind of color loss on antique pieces?

 

Anyone here use an antique tsuba and never seen a lick of change in spite of years of use?

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

Thomas, thanks for the invite to show me the “other type” of sword draws!  Unfortunately, I don’t think that is a possibility.  I noticed your post on this thread about the patination on a tsuba.  Maybe you made an error?  My thoughts are perhaps that should be a “new thread” in itself?

 

Also, I was not laughing at you.  If you thought that then I do apologize.  I was just “surprised” on the “700” number that you came up with.

 

I am also aware that there were many “secret” type of techniques that were taught and passed along orally to students.  Probably, many of those “secrets” were “lost over the years”. 

But since you brought up the subject of “secret" techniques, I have found a few quotes from “The Art of Peace” by Morihei Ueshiba-

 

Ninety-Four-

 

Progress comes

To those who

Train and train,

Reliance on secret techniques

Will get you nowhere.

 

Ninety-Five-

 

Fiddling with this

And that technique Is of no avail.

Simply act decisively

Without reserve!

 

One Hundred Two –

 

Ultimately, you must forget about technique.

The further you progress, the fewer teachings there are.

The Great Path is really No Path.

 

Some interesting stuff!

 

With respect,

Dan

 

 

 

[mas4t0]

On 7/21/2022 at 5:06 AM, Toryu2020 said:

Here's a question maybe for Ford Hallam - obviously poor patination on thos modern tsuba but why do we not see this kind of color loss on antique pieces?

 

Anyone here use an antique tsuba and never seen a lick of change in spite of years of use?

 

Tom,

 

Obviously my take is mostly irrelevant compared to Ford's, but I'll offer an explanation all the same in case Ford doesn't see this.

 

The finish in this case appears to have rubbed off (as opposed to undergoing a chemical reaction). This rubbing is likely due to the low wear resistance (i.e. ability to resist material loss by some mechanical action) of the finish or due to poor adhesion to the underlying metal.

 

The finish would appear to be chemically different to the patina of a properly patinated tsuba. Do you know whether the finish is a patina or is it perhaps a kind of paint or other applied finish?

 

The oxidised Iron which forms a patina on antique iron tsuba (and on well patinated modern iron tsuba) is a crystalline structure which remains bonded to the underlying material; thereby giving greater wear resistance. It's also sufficiently chemically inert to not react (i.e. go live) too readily.

 

Which is really just saying, "it rubs off easier because it rubs off easier."

[Toryu2020]

Thanks Mark 

Great info - not paint, I think you can see a kind of grainy surface to the rest of the plate that has not rubbed clean in that first photo, Mind you this is near daily practice for more than ten years. This is my mogito but funnily enough my shinken tsuba has similar wear, both tsuba are modern. Have to wonder if all the sake' in my system is making me "chemically unfriendly" toward tsuba!!

-t

[mas4t0]

1 hour ago, Toryu2020 said:

Thanks Mark 

Great info - not paint, I think you can see a kind of grainy surface to the rest of the plate that has not rubbed clean in that first photo, Mind you this is near daily practice for more than ten years. This is my mogito but funnily enough my shinken tsuba has similar wear, both tsuba are modern. Have to wonder if all the sake' in my system is making me "chemically unfriendly" toward tsuba!!

-t

 

It's an interesting observation, and I've seen the same thing.

 

I've seen one sweaty guy convert the patina on his tsuba into active rust (I don't know if it was his body chemistry or if he was doing something strange with it away from the dojo), and I've seen rubbing on (mostly) production fittings.

 

I tend to think of it as somewhat analogous to the difference between anodizing (a passivation process used to increase the thickness of the natural oxide layer on the surface of metal parts) in the case of an old patina as opposed to plating in the case of an applied finish.

 

It could also be the case that the patination layer on a newly made (and patinated) tsuba is very thin, so it's fully worn away with heavy use, while an older piece has a much thicker layer of the same substance (so potentially the same rate of wear is occurring with both, but there's a lot more to wear though on the antique).

 

I've been using a tsuba from Kevin Adams for quite a few years and there's been no rusting or (discernable) rubbing. I think he said at the time though that the patina took quite a few attempts to get right.

 

I'm just thinking out loud.

[Toryu2020]

Well, like the way you think - what I am wondering has anybody seen an antique that show wear anything like this? Patina lost and the regained over time? I love a puzzle...

[mas4t0]

7 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

 

Ninety-Four-

 

Progress comes

To those who

Train and train,

Reliance on secret techniques

Will get you nowhere.

 

Ninety-Five-

 

Fiddling with this

And that technique Is of no avail.

Simply act decisively

Without reserve!

 

One Hundred Two –

 

Ultimately, you must forget about technique.

The further you progress, the fewer teachings there are.

The Great Path is really No Path.

 

 

You are of course correct Dan, but I feel like those quotes can be quite easily misconstrued.

 

I could probably detail well over 100 variations of jabs.

 

If we take for the sake of simplicity the assumption that you need to practice a movement (correctly) at least 10k times in order to have it locked in...

 

If you threw 500 jabs per training session, and trained 5 nights per week, it would take you ~1 month per variation to reach a decent standard.

 

It would take you close to 10 years to learn all 100.

 

Each of those techniques would be (close to) useless to you, until you've done your 10k repetitions.

 

You need to train with sparring partners, so you can hardly keep the technique secret (from your training partners).

 

But when you've got 50 variations locked in and ready to go, you just throw a jab and it'll be the right one, thrown correctly. You reach a point where it's not about technique, you're giving no thought to technique, only thinking of higher level strategy. Akin to hitting a button on a fighting game.

 

If a professional sportsman starts thinking about his technique mid game, he's sure to lose.

 

Which really is to say that technique is important, in fact it's vital, technique should be the focus of countless hours in the gym. Technique is vital and technique training (whether in weightlifting, track and field, martial arts, ball sports, etc) is essential to high level performance. It only seems to disappear when you've mastered the techniques to such an extent that you've truly made them your own and adapted them to your own anatomy.

 

I felt it worth saying as I've had this discussion with many students over the years.

 

To be beyond technique and just generate force optimally is the ultimate goal, but the way to get there is though countless hours of technique training (usually with many, many variations over the years).

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

I know this post is somewhat “off the thread” but I wanted to respond to Mark-

 

Mark, thank you, sensei.  Of course, you are correct in the amount of training required to achieve “muscle memory” and a “non-thinking” response.  To have to “think” of doing a move before doing it can waste milliseconds and result in defeat.

 

I have been fortunate to have competed in International and National (both types of tournaments in the United States) competitions in karate.  Personally, I think I have forgotten more karate than most people have been taught!  I was 63 at my last National competition, and now only train (at 72 – probably never will compete again, but then again “never say never”!).  Hey, too much “feeling the pain” nowadays!

 

I have been taught many things in my 37 years of training (yes, I started training when I was 35 – what was I thinking!).  But now after all the hundreds of techniques I have been taught I keep training in only a couple of them.  Maybe only 3 types of blocks, 3 punches, and 2 kicks.  But those have been done “with no thought” for many years.

 

I fully agree with you, and I feel that “strategy” is much more important than any kind of “secret” technique.  An opponent can throw his “secret” technique.  But with maintaining proper distance and “watchfulness” any “secret” technique can be neutralized.

 

Again, just my opinion.

 

With respect,

Dan

[mas4t0]

12 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

Hello all!

 

I know this post is somewhat “off the thread” but I wanted to respond to Mark-

 

Mark, thank you, sensei.  Of course, you are correct in the amount of training required to achieve “muscle memory” and a “non-thinking” response.  To have to “think” of doing a move before doing it can waste milliseconds and result in defeat.

 

I have been fortunate to have competed in International and National (both types of tournaments in the United States) competitions in karate.  Personally, I think I have forgotten more karate than most people have been taught!  I was 63 at my last National competition, and now only train (at 72 – probably never will compete again, but then again “never say never”!).  Hey, too much “feeling the pain” nowadays!

 

I have been taught many things in my 37 years of training (yes, I started training when I was 35 – what was I thinking!).  But now after all the hundreds of techniques I have been taught I keep training in only a couple of them.  Maybe only 3 types of blocks, 3 punches, and 2 kicks.  But those have been done “with no thought” for many years.

 

I fully agree with you, and I feel that “strategy” is much more important than any kind of “secret” technique.  An opponent can throw his “secret” technique.  But with maintaining proper distance and “watchfulness” any “secret” technique can be neutralized.

 

Again, just my opinion.

 

With respect,

Dan

 

I'm glad we're on the same page Dan. No disrespect was intended, I just wanted to be sure that those passages were well understood (I wasn't aware of your background, one way or another).

 

I'm sure of those "3 types of blocks, 3 punches, and 2 kicks" there are countless subtle variations, a few of which are an official part of the style, but many, many more of which are your own innovations based on experience.

[ROKUJURO]

2 hours ago, Toryu2020 said:

......what I am wondering: has anybody seen an antique TSUBA that shows wear anything like this? Patina lost and then regained over time?.......

Thomas,

I am not sure that I have such a TSUBA with traces of use among mine to show, but I have seen some. Not unusual in my understanding.

 
What I would like to add is that a good patina is often enhanced by handling. You have all seen old iron hand rails accompanying stairs or old door handles. Very often these have a nice SABIJI patina which does not change even with moisture and rain. This builds up in years and is very stable.

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Sensei Mark,

 

No disrespect was ever “felt”.  We were just having a lively discourse on a subject.  Yes, there are various subtilties which I am sure I have developed over the years with my techniques.  Of course, that doesn’t keep me from “getting my ass kicked” sometimes when I have competed!!  But competing in kumite, kata, and iaido does keep the old skills sharp, and I am happy I can just remember and apply some of them!!

 

With respect,

Dan

[John A Stuart]

A tsuba will show wear if there is a constant wear in one area, as is common for nukitsuke or nukiuchi in iaido practice. Outside of that, kenjutsu, relying less on the nuki will have less wear patterning. As to 700 types of draw. Well, there are lots of variations and quite distinctive and each having specific reasons; control, defense and offense, physical limitations, stature etc.