Thrift store find

[Geoffrey Marsh]

Found these in a thrift store for $4 ea. Do I have real Tsubas or are these Chinese replicas? 

[vajo]

Lucky boy.

[Geraint]

Dear Geoffrey.

 

Welcome to NMB.  To answer your question they all appear to be genuine from these photos.  Don't be tempted to clean them at all, see if you can get slightly better photos and post them here.  Lots of folks will help.

 

This has to go down as one of the best stories.

 

All the best.

 

[Geoffrey Marsh]

[Geoffrey Marsh]

[Rivkin]

All are good, some are just quite late, but some are really decent in every aspect.

[Geoffrey Marsh]

11 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

All are good, some are just quite late, but some are really decent in every aspect.

How late are we talking? 

[Spartancrest]

They are great quality - you didn't mention the name of the shop?  

You wouldn't take $20 each? - Just joking - What about $200? That is the find of the Century [well the first quarter of 21st century at least!]

You don't need to go out and buy a lottery ticket - you already WON!

[Shugyosha]

Instant collection. Obviously Virginia has better thrift shops than we get in the UK.

[Geoffrey Marsh]

Does anyone know where and when these are from and what they are worth?

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

After an appropriate value is given I would be interested in purchasing the one with the tiger and moon design (if you wish to sell any).

[Bazza]

I'm sure John has your best interests at heart Geoffrey!!!  Honestly, if you put them up for sale there would be stampede!!  I can't believe how lucky you are that NO ONE has 'restored' these in the best Western tradition of metal polish and scrubbing!!  If you were ever captivated by Japanese art (like all the folk on this Board) your lucky find is the basis for a collecting career in Japanese tsuba (sword 'guards').  However, again like most folk on this Board the collecting of such is bound to keep you poor.  Just ask me!!!

 

Do please keep us all in touch with where you want to go - and welcome to the Board community.

 

BaZZa.

 

aka Barry Thomas

(Melbourne, Australia)

[Spartancrest]

Yes welcome Geoffrey!  The dreaded value question, everyone will have a different opinion. What are they worth to you? Are you a collector or do you want to be a dealer? If you are a collector you would be hard pressed to start off with pieces as good as you have. We all wish we had your luck, because most of us started with less impressive pieces and only those members who can remember Queen Victoria on the throne will have purchased so many for so little money.  

[Spartancrest]

Geoffrey, I have some information on the Nanban guard for you - same dragon prow ship style.

https://www.facebook.com/Asian-Export-sword-guards-and-Nanban-tsuba-564035753684007/

 

Also from https://www.mandarinmansion.com/item/signed-nanban-style-ship-tsuba  once again a similar design but with a phoenix prow.

 

For a rough price guide you might like to check this site- https://www.japaneseswordbooksandtsuba.com/store/tsuba-%26-kodogu/t186-wonderful-namban-tsuba-chinese-boat

I hope this is helpful.

[kissakai]

This is what we all dream about!

 

[BryanG]

You know how Antiques Roadshow always has an appraisal that's "the money shot" at the end of an episode? 

[Rivkin]

I would say these are bettwen 200$ and maybe as high as 700$ a piece. 

Dragons and clouds with nanako, namban and the one with the script are my favorites. The rest is sort of late, but not criminally so.

These do reflect a specific taste.

My guess someone lived a lonely life as a collector and then died. 

[Spartancrest]

"My guess someone lived a lonely life as a collector and then died. "

Kirill that sounds familiar - .  I would guess that is where the majority of pieces have come from, after all its been nearly 200 years since the samurai used them.

Something for all collectors to think about- where does your collection go when we go too?   [please, please don't say eBay!]

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

Geoffery, welcome to the forum!  Man, what a fantastic find!  I am super jealous!  I have been collecting for about only 4 years, but don’t have any tsuba as nice as yours.

 

My opinion (and advice) is not to sell them.  Just enjoy them for a while.  The value of your tsuba is only going to increase over time.  The “Edo period “(and other Japanese period) tsuba are dwindling in numbers as they are “bought up” by collectors. 

 

Research them and find out as much as you can about them (you can find research material to study on this forum).  They are full of history and the motifs on some of them are based on Japanese legends and have “amazing stories” to tell.  Study the signatures (called Mei) on some of the tsuba (if you need assistance there is a “translation” section on this forum).  Those signatures can give you insight into the “age” of the tsuba.

 

Keep them, they are “treasures”!

 

With respect,

Dan

[BjornLundin]

3 hours ago, Rivkin said:

I would say these are bettwen 200$ and maybe as high as 700$ a piece. 

Dragons and clouds with nanako, namban and the one with the script are my favorites. The rest is sort of late, but not criminally so.

These do reflect a specific taste.

My guess someone lived a lonely life as a collector and then died. 

 

I think Rivkin has got it right here. 200-700 USD.

 

I was for a long time tempted to buy this one.

 

https://www.japaneseswordbooksandtsuba.com/store/tsuba-%26-kodogu/q237-fine-shakudo-nanako-tsuba-over-run-dragons

 

Compare it with yours. 

 

Great find! 

 

 Best Björn 

[Mark S.]

Love the tiger and moon as well as the mountain scene with hut and farmers.  ‘Saving’ items from a thrift store is always so much fun, but usually not as grand as this story.  Well done!

[GRC]

Congrats!

I applaud your thrift store rescue, and then your seeking out of information 

[SteveM]

Hello,

Here are some of the names on the tsuba. As always, there is no guarantee of authenticity, and its always a good idea to be very skeptical of items with well-known names on them being sold for low prices in thrift shops. 

 

Can you post a better/closer picture of the tsuba with the mountain and hut scene (fifth tsuba from the top in the fourth post in this thread)? 

The one with the two plugged holes. 

 

The Shūhōsai Masayuki (Shōzui) tsuba has what looks to be a poem inscribed on the back. It's written in cursive ("grass") script, which is tough to read. Hopefully someone can crack this code. 

[Rivkin]

I think they are all certifiable gimei. Soten is late Nagoyamono, other gimei are also late.

[kissakai]

All of them gimei?

Some look OK

 

[GRC]

Geoffrey, "gimei" are tsuba that have had signatures put on them on them that basically make the claim that they were made by a particular smith or "school" of smiths.

Gimei signatures could have been added at the time the tsuba was produced, or added later by someone who likely wasn't even a tsuba maker, both having the ultimate intent of inflating their value for sale purposes.

 

These were/are very common practices in Japan (and elsewhere).

 

I think what people might be suggesting by saying "late productions" is that these are all likely genuine Edo period tsuba, but are later direct "copies of", or simply "in the style of" earlier works.

During the Edo period, there seems to have been a fair number of tsuba workshops that made large quantities of certain tsuba styles and motifs.

Although most were made by relatively skilled craftsmen, there's still an element of "production for the masses".

 

It's also possible that some of your tsuba were made by a particular tsuba "school", where apprentice smiths were making "copies" of a master-smith's work in order to scale up production. These wouldn't be considered "gimei" but would be considered "school work". 

 

In the end, these things are worth what people are willing to pay for them. 

But on that note, a well made copy or well made "in the style of" tsuba still has intrinsic value because someone will like it and will want to have it.

The difference in the end will be a value $30-$50, a few $100 to a $1000, or many $1000s...   

 

From my observations, the closer the connection to the original master smith in both time and location of production, the higher price people are willing to pay for it.

Something like this type of ranking:

1-original master work by a master artist

2-original work (but maybe not a "masterpiece") by a master artist

3-work in the style of the master, by one of their direct students (early school work)

4-work in the style of the "school", by a later generation smith working in the school (later school work)

5-some tsuba artist/craftsman somewhere, with no specific connection to the original master or school, who produces a piece in the style of a particular school ("gimei" if signed with some specific school or earlier smith's name)

...

...

x-mass productions made by casting or machining. (* I didn't want to give this one a number so I called it "X". We've seen many examples where someone ended up paying way too much for one of these. The newly made ones are really deceptive!)

 

I may have missed some in that list... so anyone can feel free to add to it, or muck around with the idea 

I suppose you could also make the case to re-rank #2-5 based on the specific talents of the respective smiths who made the tsuba   

 

Geoffrey, I'm guessing most of your collection would fall in the #4-5 categories, but I'm most familiar with only one of yours, so I leave the rest to the other NMB members to offer up their thoughts.

 

I just wanted to help with the idea of "gimei", then I got caught up in values and rankings...

[Dan tsuba]

Hey Geoffrey,

 

All sorts of great information being posted on this thread about your “thrift store” finds!   I don’t know, perhaps you already have been sent emails by “dealers”.  Maybe they are willing to assist in determining the status of your tsuba.  I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents worth of information (maybe only 1 cent worth!).

 

There are organizations (NBTHK and NTHK - you can find out about these on this forum or check out the internet) that you can send your tsuba to, and for a fee they can “authenticate” your tsuba and send you “certification” papers (if your tsuba are the “real deal”- hey they look good to me-but then I really don’t know much about tsuba and am easily “taken in”!).

Once (and if) certification papers are issued, they can easily double the price of your tsuba.  So, if you ever are serious about selling them this may be an option.

 

However, I have heard that this can be an expensive process.  If I was lucky enough to own tsuba like yours, I would just put a nail in the wall and hang them up by the nakago-ana (the long tang hole in the center) and enjoy them like I do with all of my tsuba (I only have about 120 of them and the collection is “still growing”!  I need more wall space!).  The main enjoyment for me is the artwork, craftsmanship, skill, possible age and history, and the possible story that the tsuba can sometimes “tell” in its motif.  Like I said in my previous post to this thread “I don’t have any tsuba as nice as yours”!!

 

With respect,

Dan

 

[Baba Yaga]

What to do? If you're a Tsuba collector, you keep them. If you're a sword collector, you sell and buy a sword.

If you're neither, pay for the car insurance and put some gas in it. I bought a Breyer horse for $15 and sold it in a week for $2500,

I don't collect Breyer horses, but I knew what they were worth. 

[Steves87]

13 hours ago, SteveM said:

Hello,

Here are some of the names on the tsuba. As always, there is no guarantee of authenticity, and its always a good idea to be very skeptical of items with well-known names on them being sold for low prices in thrift shops. 

 

Can you post a better/closer picture of the tsuba with the mountain and hut scene (fifth tsuba from the top in the fourth post in this thread)? 

The one with the two plugged holes. 

 

The Shūhōsai Masayuki (Shōzui) tsuba has what looks to be a poem inscribed on the back. It's written in cursive ("grass") script, which is tough to read. Hopefully someone can crack this code. 

according to a post by Hristo Tenev on the facebook post, the translation is "the sound of the mountain is high"

[Rivkin]

12 hours ago, kissakai said:

All of them gimei?

Some look OK

 

To me Soten is a decent Nagoyamono, Shozui is a late imitation, but ok quality one and Nobuyuki to me feels like later work in Hamano Nara style.

You definitely feel specific taste for later imitations and some monetary constraint in this collection.

Namban and dragons are earlier and what they want to be.