Late War Shin-Gunto with Very Crude Fittings and Stamped Menuki.

[tbonesullivan]

Recently we got in some Gunto that are a little odd. I'm not sure if they are "Late War", or just something I haven't seen before. The fittings are pretty crude compared to what I see on other swords, and the menuki are not cast, but stamped. They also seem to have the Mekugi for the handle placed in the middle, and on the Type 98 it was under one of the menuki, which I had to move to pull off the handle. The tang is pretty crude as well, and the Fuchi does not have a top to it.  The P44 type is also strange, with non-magnetic fittings on he tsuka, and a scabbard that is leather wrapped with a copper/brass end fitting that goes over the leather.  Just pretty strange, and I've personally handled and disassembled well over 100 Gunto to read the tangs.

Any thoughts?

[Brian]

Odd. The top one almost looks like an NCO Gunto put into different mounts. First instincts are that it's fake. But haven't looked at the fittings properly yet.

[Bruce Pennington]

In my early years, I would immediately called the Type 98 a fake, with the poor quality kabutogane, and ito wrapped all in one direction, and poor quality nakago.  I've seen enough variation since then, and lengthy debates over island-made gunto, that I'm going to firmly say - I don't know!  Could certainly use more clear closeups of tsuba, fuchi, and kabutogane for a better opinion. 

 

You haven't shown enough of the Rinji details to begin a guess.

[Bruce Pennington]

I just noticed the writing on the leather saya cover!  I can say I've never seen that on a fake before!

[Tensho]

I too would've called that 98 a fake. Actually, its highly suspicious to me. I'm nowhere near an expert on them but there's a lot not right looking. 

-Kabutogane is horrible looking

-Tsuba is horrible as well 

-Seppa are just rectangular punched?

-Nakago obviously 

-mekugi-ana nowhere near where it should be.

-non alternating ito.

 

The fuchi is not strange to me, I have seen this personally. What is bothering me is that is has a chuso as well. 

 

Leather saya cover. This just makes me think fake as well. 3rd Battalion(anything else), Guadalcanal and Okinawa. 24th of March? This would've been Months after the battle had ended(granted it could've been his discharge or something else but just weird way of writing this)

 

I dont known..  This just seems to have all the bells and whistles with none of the details. Even my low quality gunto have/had better koshirae. BTW, every gunto menkui I have seen have been stamped?

[tbonesullivan]

I'll try to get some more pictures of the Rinji. It's just weird, but it doesn't look new or recent, however they have been making fakes for quite some time.

 

The type 98 has writing on both sides of the Scabbard cover. I've thought possibly it was some type of post war souvenir. I know leather can be aged, but it definitely looks to be decades old. I gave the Sa-Me the heat test, and it's real ray skin.

[BANGBANGSAN]

3 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I just noticed the writing on the leather saya cover!  I can say I've never seen that on a fake before!

It looks like Guadalcanal, Okinawa, 3RD Bm, and other stuff.

[PNSSHOGUN]

The tassel appears original for what it's worth.

[Dave R]

 I would call the top one out as being a mix of fake and original parts, as we have seen so often before. The tang and the wrap are all wrong, and the seppa look to have been crudely altered to fit.

 The Rinji looks OK, but better photos needed. The wrap is an amateur job and the proportions are odd. I would not buy either from these photos. 

[tbonesullivan]

13 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

It looks like Guadalcanal, Okinawa, 3RD Bm, and other stuff.

There is more writing on the other side. It's a "USGI Bringback" where they wrote all over the scabbard cover. It's marked to the Company "L", 3rd Battalion, 29th Marines on one side, and 6th Division on the other. The markings almost look burned into the leather.

[tbonesullivan]

Here are some more pictures of the Fittings on the Rinji Shin-Gunto. The handle wrapping style is like a lot of others I have handled, but the material is not. I also can't tell where the mekugi is at all.

[Bruce Pennington]

Again, problem with these is that the poor quality of fakes, late-war work, and island swords, all make them look so much the same.  Sheesh, what a mess!

[tbonesullivan]

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Again, problem with these is that the poor quality of fakes, late-war work, and island swords, all make them look so much the same.  Sheesh, what a mess!

If they are fakes or assembled from parts post war, it was definitely quite some time ago. The two swords came from totally different places. Both have real stingray skin under the wrappings. 

[Dave R]

Souvenir swords were being made even as the war was still ongoing.

 

[Kiipu]

David S., after March 1945, anything is possible in regards to Japanese swords.  Starting in the last year of the war, all kinds of patriotic sword production took place.

Type 98 sword with unusual mark on tang

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