Rusty blade...need help

[Browningguy]

Hello. I'm a military collector and finally got a wwii sword. The blade is in very poor shape and I would like an opinion on how to stabilize it or if I should just let it be. I know, Don't touch the tang, I'm not going to polish it. It's probably too far gone but still neat to me. I think those sword sat in its scabbard for a long time, a wet scabbard at that. When I turn the scabbard upside down little bits of what looks like wood falls out. Anyway, should I wipe the blade down with something to clean it then oil the blade? I came to this forum for expert advice not the Bubba Gump special. Thank you in advance. 

[ChrisW]

To begin, if the scabbard (saya) is the source of the issue, I would not store it in its saya anymore (if you got one with the blade), but keep it together with it obviously. You can fashion a paper saya out of any non-acidic paper.

To arrest the rust, you must first clean it: I'd start with a mild soap and water to remove the wood bits and any possible resins/old oil and then hand dry with a soft towel. Then you can use a high purity isopropyl alcohol (electronics grade is fine) and tissue paper to wipe it clean, which will remove any of the loose surface rust. Finally, use either a choji oil (available from several vendors of nihonto) or camellia oil, or any good quality mineral or non-abrasive oil. A light coating will do. Then store in a cool, dry place out of direct sunlight in its paper saya. Avoid anything abrasive.

If you suspect the blade may be traditionally made, then it could possibly warrant a look at by a togishi for polishing if you so desire; if not, enjoy it as is! Welcome to the world of nihonto/related militaria!

Edit: Also, I am sure everyone here would love to see the nakago (tang). If you feel comfortable gently knocking the mekugi-pin out, folks here could provide further insight on if it is traditional or machine made/age of the blade itself.

[Grey Doffin]

I don't think the scabbard is the problem and I see no reason why the blade can't be stored inside it (that's why you purchased the sword, right? So you can display it as a unit). I would make sure the inside of the scabbard is dry. Not likely it isn't but best to make sure. Leave the sword out of it for a few dry days; maybe place the scabbard in direct sunlight so it heats up to hasten drying. In the mean time, clean any loose rust particles from the blade with a cloth rag and apply a very light coat of machine oil (sewing machine or the other oils mentioned above) to the exposed blade (not the nakago). You can then put the sword back in its scabbard and no further damage should occur.

You should remove the handle to make sure there is no active red rust on the nakago; let us know if there is and further advice will follow. If the scabbard is metal with a wood liner, it may be possible to remove and clean the liner. Let us know what type scabbard you have.

Grey

[Bruce Pennington]

I agree with both Dave and Chris.  You are in Wyoming, so likely fairly dry climate which is good to prevent future rust.  If you got the sword from somewhere else, recently, simply leave the blade out of the saya (scabbard) for a few days to let the saya air out and dry, if still wet.  Sometimes you can remove the saya throat piece and the wooden liners will slide out, for better drying, but they don't always come out.  Plus, if yours has pieces falling out, the liners may not be in one piece anymore.

 

I would also appreciate seeing the nakago (tang).  It's easy to remove the handle.  Sometimes the rust can make it feel stuck, even with the bamboo peg removed, but you can always wiggle the tsuka (handguard), or tap it with a rubber mallet, if stuck, and everything will slide off.

[Browningguy]

Thank you all for the help. That's exactly what I wanted. I will will work on exposing the tang tonight. 

[Grey Doffin]

Scroll down for sword care and cleaning: https://nbthk-ab2.org/sword-characteristics/

Grey

[Browningguy]

Welp I can't get the handle off. What's left of the peg is stuck and won't budge. The hole for the peg is off center and the handle has slid down slightly. And I can't push it back up either. I think somebody tried to get it apart years ago then gave up. I can see why. It looks brittle so I don't want to destroy anything plus I'm sure i would need a new peg after it's apart.  Suggestions? 

[Toryu2020]

Peg needs to go anyway if its 70 years old - use an awl or an icepick and gently break it up - careful not to drill holes in your tang. Follow the steps above, proceed slowly youre sure to be successful...

-tch

[Grey Doffin]

Find a rubber headed mallet and tap on the bottom of the handle to bring the blade back down inside the handle where it belongs. Then you might be able to push out the remainder of the peg or tap it out with a punch and hammer. If this works, be sure to make a new pin right away; the pin is very important.

The hole is supposed to be slightly off center, handle to tang of the blade. When the peg is inserted it draws everything together tight.

Grey

[ChrisW]

The pins are among the most easily replaceable/disposable part on the entire setup. You can make one from a chopstick or other piece of hardened bamboo and whittle to size pretty easily, so don't worry about destroying the old pin!

[Browningguy]

I'm positive I've destroyed the pin and it's gone but the handle won't budge. I have a rubber mallet and have tapped it every way. Any other suggestions? 

[ChrisW]

All else fails, you can take it to a sword show or to a collector from the board in your area and find assistance there. Sometimes it takes a little time and patience to loose these things. I know with WWII mounts, especially kyu gunto, they can become stuck due to a build-up of verdigris which can occur with yours (a shin gunto). It can also be due to wood shrinkage.

I would say keep trying, you can perhaps wrap the blade in a cloth, put it in a vise and use a rubber mallet and block to give the tsuba (brass guard) a gentle whack. Once you feel some movement, go gently from there.

[Bruce Pennington]

Considering the level of rust, I would say that all that is holding everything on is rust. I have seen that a few times. You might try shooting some Rust remover spray in there and continue to tap with the rubber mallet.

 

I have recently seen a couple of officer swords with an extra hole at the end of the tang. If that is the case with yours, you must unscrew the sarute barrel in the end of your tsuka (handle).

[Browningguy]

Finally got it. Lots of rust. 

[SteveM]

濃州兼俊作

 

Made by Kanetoshi of Nōshū province.

[Browningguy]

Rikugun Jumei Tosho swordsmith?

[SteveM]

Yes - possibly Murayama Kanetoshi. 

 

See this thread (and others) for more examples of Murayama Kanetoshi

 

 

http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/gendai2.htm

[ChrisW]

Congrats! That star stamp on the nakago means it is a traditionally made-blade and may very well be worth having restored by a trained togishi! I would see if maybe Bob Benson could give his opinion on it.

[Bruce Pennington]

I have 3 star-stamped Kanetoshi blades on file, one from 1943, and 2 from 1944; both in RS fittings.  Don't know what year he got RJT qualified, so yours could be as early as 1942, though.

 

Love to see this polished!  If you're not going to polish, I had some success using a deer antler and a mineral oil - lindseed oil mix, removing active rust.  You can get cut antlers at pet shops.  Has a good edge for scraping at the rust.

[Browningguy]

Is there a debate in the Japanese sword community to leave it as-is or is a restoration by a trained togoshi always the way to go? Very curious what people think.  I'm not opposed to a restoration at all, just wondering. 

[ChrisW]

If it is historically significant or would be worth more as a polished piece, then it is likely to be polished (or if the owner is emotionally attached to the piece). Otherwise, it is generally left in a stable, but unpolished state. Many gendaito are now at the point where polishing is financially viable; it has been a trend that has been changing over the years. You should definitely reach out to a togishi like Bob Benson to get their opinion on the viability of this piece!

[Nihontocollector752]

RJT blades paper at NBTHK Hozon, well worth having this professionally restored as long as there is no deep pitting. Please don't use chemicals to clean it. Congratulations on this blade, save the nakago too.

[Bruce Pennington]

Yes, I should clarify - I was talking about using the antler on the nakago to remove the active rust.  Don't use it on the blade!

[Browningguy]

Thanks Bruce! 

It does have some pitting and nicks in the blade so not sure it worthy of restoration. Also the blade is slightly bent. 

[ChrisW]

A bend is easily correctable by a trained togishi. And you'd be surprised what level of pitting is able to come out after some careful work. You shouldn't be discouraged and call up a togishi!

[Browningguy]

I checked out Bob Benson's website, looks like he has a long wait list.  Are there other recommended Togishi?  Looks like some are really good and some are not so good. 

[ChrisW]

Well, there's a few! There's Moses Becerra and Woody Hall that I know of. Unfortunately though, the wait list and time to get back as a finished sword is long for any good polisher; but patience is a virtue and is always worth it!

[Bruce Pennington]

It took me nearly 2 years on the wait list before I could even mail in my blade!  It was worth the wait.

[ChrisW]

5 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

It took me nearly 2 years on the wait list before I could even mail in my blade!  It was worth the wait.

 

Truth.