Shinsa and tired blades.

[Paz]

Hi all just looking for some more clarification. A more general question I have which might be quite simple. 

 

I've been reading clive sinclaires book, where he mentions ha giri and other faults which could mean that a blade is tired, or at the end of its life. 

 

However, from my knowledge on NBTHK hozon certifications. 

 

The NBTHK would not give hozon papers to a blade which is faulted or has ha giri or signs of tiredness? 

 

Is this correct? 

 

So buying papered blades ie hozon or tokubetsu hozon are a guarantee that you are not buying a tired blade with major critical faults, which the shinsa team have missed. 

 

I also gather it depends on when the papers were issued too ? 

 

If this is correct then this should be another indicator to why a new collector should try to buy a papered blade until they have the knowledge or skill to identity faults in a blade. 

 

Thanks 

[Geraint]

Dear Paz.

 

This is Japanese swords!  Nothing is simple!  Have a look here, http://www.nihontocraft.com/Nihonto_Shinsa_Standards.html

 

Basically old and special, flaws allowed.  New, no flaws allowed.  For myself a fatal flaw would be different from tiredness which is the result of too many polishes for the sword.

 

Others will have much more to add to this, I'm sure.

 

All the best.

[Baba Yaga]

13 minutes ago, Geraint said:

Dear Paz.

 

This is Japanese swords!  Nothing is simple!  Have a look here, http://www.nihontocraft.com/Nihonto_Shinsa_Standards.html

 

"This was published in March of 2006"   That's about the time Japans economy started to tank and Shinsa standards became laxed. Is their a correlation, I don't know.  

[mas4t0]

1 hour ago, Paz said:

Hi all just looking for some more clarification. A more general question I have which might be quite simple. 

 

I've been reading clive sinclaires book, where he mentions ha giri and other faults which could mean that a blade is tired, or at the end of its life. 

 

However, from my knowledge on NBTHK hozon certifications. 

 

The NBTHK would not give hozon papers to a blade which is faulted or has ha giri or signs of tiredness? 

 

Is this correct? 

 

So buying papered blades ie hozon or tokubetsu hozon are a guarantee that you are not buying a tired blade with major critical faults, which the shinsa team have missed. 

 

I also gather it depends on when the papers were issued too ? 

 

If this is correct then this should be another indicator to why a new collector should try to buy a papered blade until they have the knowledge or skill to identity faults in a blade. 

 

Thanks 

 

My personal opinion is that while papers in theory wouldn't be granted in this situation (certain exceptions aside), low level papers shouldn't be taken as a guarantee of condition.

 

Which is to say; I'm sure there will be a few blades which slip through when they really shouldn't. There's also of course the possibly of damage to the blade after papers were issued.

[AntiquarianCat]

I remember coming upon this Darcy article a while ago: https://web.archive.org/web/20210115170835/https://blog.yuhindo.com/dont-bother-it-has-no-boshi/

 

In it a sword had suffered fatal damage in the form of a lost boshi and out of respect to it otherwise having been a treasure sword was able to go as far as TH papers. Many people bought it without looking, thinking they could send it for Juyo but it never made it so they’d pass it on.

 

It seems like how harshly a blade graded on condition is relative to the sword: a Rai Kunitoshi was given slack, but if I sent them a podunk shinto with hagire I’m sure they’d just look funny at the sword and send it back empty handed.

 

Going by anecdotes it seems like non fatal flaws aren’t judged as harshly 

Someone was able to get Shinteisho for a tired Shinshinto. Japanese auction sites also have half out of polish unremarkable swords which got Shinteisho.

 

[Paz]

21 minutes ago, AntiquarianCat said:

I remember coming upon this Darcy article a while ago: https://web.archive.org/web/20210115170835/https://blog.yuhindo.com/dont-bother-it-has-no-boshi/

 

In it a sword had suffered fatal damage in the form of a lost boshi and  out of respect to it otherwise having been a treasure sword was able to go as far as TH papers. Many people bought it without looking thinking they could send it for Juyo but it never made it so they’d flip it

 

It seems like how harshly it’s graded on condition is relative to the sword: a Rai Kunitoshi was given slack, but if I sent them a run of the mill shinto with hagire I’m sure they’d just look funny at the sword and send it back empty handed.

 

Going by anecdotes it seems like non fatal flaws aren’t judged as harshly 

Someone was able to get Shinteisho for a tired Shinshinto. Yahoo Japan also has mostly out of polish unremarkable swords with a window which got Shinteisho, but maybe they’re harsher on swords in the SF shinsa? I wouldn’t know, just that there’s cases of unremarkable tired swords eking out shinteisho.

 

Juan 

 

That article by Darcy was fantastic 👏 

 

I think sense usually will dictate that older swords are going to have flaws such as lack of boshi ect. Especially if these blades were from the late kamakura, nanbokucho eras. Because they were weapons and repair was going to be needed. 

 

But I think it's sad that some people couldn't just appreciate the work and history of Rai kunitoshi sword  for example, and instead try to get higher ranking papers for profit. 

It's like everyone wants to be a dealer than an actual collector. 

 

I mean TH  ranking is high enough for appreciation from any collector who's not in it for flipping the blade. 

 

That's one of my frustration of this hobby is that people judge the worth of the blade for profit later down the line, rather than looking at a piece of work which has hundreds of years of history. That it still exists and can be mostly appreciated would be enough for someone like me. 

 

 

But I guess I can't moan, especially if people have the eye and knowledge to flip a sword for higher price by getting it shinsa ranked increased. 

 

I find it logical that the NBTHK grant TH or hozon status to flawed blades which are very old and have a good excuse ie fighting on one of the monster battlefields. Which appeals to me. 

 

Has anyone seen the episode of antique sellers I beleive where Pablo kuntz is trying to sell a blade ? Everyone ignores his pitch about the characteristics of the blade. And suddenly they all wow when he mentions it was used on the battlefield by such n such ect. 

 

Regards 

 

[Jean]

Forget shinsa criteria, I know 2 historical tanto which will never pass juyo but which should be by right as unique:

 

both are the only existing exemplary tanto : one is by the founder of the Ayanakoji school, and the other one is this one:

 

 

[AntiquarianCat]

I hope you, and everyone else will excuse the question, but this is honestly the most relevant thread I’ve seen in years and didn’t want to gum up the forum with another “will this pass”. I’m planning to go to the shinsa and can only take a handful of swords I feel it’s important to decide on what’s worth the trouble of bringing.

 

Would those with experience know if this sword stands any chance of getting Shinteisho?

Its the sword some bubba carved but it’s otherwise in a decent old polish state, and fairly healthy. And I have a soft spot for it since it was my first longsword. Robert Benson said it was Bizen muromachi, probably pre sengoku. If it was once something nice would a shinsa tolerate the carvings, or am I better off submitting a different sword? I’ve seen ferric chloride damaged swords and other compromised swords get Shinteisho but I don’t know if a horrible bonji is a bridge too far.

 

 

 

 

[Shugyosha]

Hi Juan,

I don't think that the carving will cause it to fail shinsa. Swords pass all the time with ato hori of varying degrees of quality, so I'd submit it unless you have a better candidate given what Mr Benson has said about its age.

 

 

[Paz]

@AntiquarianCat

 

Hi Juan 

 

I've got nanbokucho with tokubetsu hozon which has a carving , two. However I beleive these to be genuine of that time due one showing some ageing. 

 

Otherwise that you have their is fantastic looking blade which I would definitely take to shinsa 

[Toryu2020]

Juan -

The NTHK would not fail a sword based on a poor horimono (ato-bori, dremel work, bubba cut) - however this can be an indication of issues with the sword so the overall condition needs to be considered. If that is the only "flaw" then the sword has a good chance.

 

If anyone is coming to the San Francisco Show and considering a shinsa submission, you can come see me personally and we are happy to check the condition of your blade ahead of time - if it is in the proper state for an examination we will tell you and if it obviously is not we will tell you and this will cost you nothing.

-tch

[Lareon]

I suppose as others have said it depends on the flaw and age, I have a very old blade that i will be having polished and go to shinsa and it has two faults

1. a large sword strike on the back edge of the blade, i find this a beautiful addition though and would not like it removed.

 

2. the boshi is potentially lost.

 

I will still have the blade polished and go to shinsa though, It is my favourite and has pride of place in my collection. Once the situation with getting items too and from Japan is sorted I will do it. I've been waiting patiently for almost a year

 

 

[Katsujinken]

Hi Tony —

 

A kirikomi is not a fault at all, and many are preserved in high level swords with top level papers.

 

But a lost boshi can be a dealbreaker if the blade is not extremely special and important, as others noted.

[Lareon]

53 minutes ago, Katsujinken said:

Hi Tony —

 

A kirikomi is not a fault at all, and many are preserved in high level swords with top level papers.

 

But a lost boshi can be a dealbreaker if the blade is not extremely special and important, as others noted.

yes the kirikomi is not really a fault, the boshi is very well hidden, I think I can see it sometimes but other times not at all i showed it to a polisher here in the uk and they thought it was most likely lost and would need a window made to check. 
I love the sword though and will be sending it to Japan for polish and shinsa no matter what. 

The results; who knows, but it's worthy of restoration and one I wont be parting with so I don't care about value.