Opinions on Yasutsugu and Aoi mon variations

[eric-t]

Hello again, 

 

I posted pics of my presumably gimei Yasutsugu on the forum several months ago for feedback. And since it was determined as gimei based on the mei, I searched high and low for different variations of the Yasutsugu mei and the aoi mon to see if I can find similarities/inconsistencies with the mei to possibly dispute the gimei determination.

 

I am in no way arguing that my sword is the real deal with these photos. I would like to simply raise the discussion and would like some of your expertise on the mei's I have found in comparison. And as photos would show, some of these yasutsugu's with unusual mei's were papered as legitimate.

 

Examples of what is different about the mei's from the photos from typical Yasutsugu's are the aoi mon, the 之 kanji at the end(which usually looks like a blossom), and maybe the 康 kanji?

 

Again, just wondering what everyone thinks.

 

*I googled these photos awhile back and had them in my files for awhile so I have no information about the photos, besides what is photographed.*

 

Thanks for your feedback in advance. My Yasutsugu is at the very end btw.

[eric-t]

[eric-t]

[eric-t]

[eric-t]

[eric-t]

[eric-t]

[eric-t]

[Toryu2020]

An interesting question - are you looking at all Yasutsugu or just one particular generation?

 

-t

[Rivkin]

The problem is that some images shown are also likely gimei. The case where specialized text cannot be replaced by search.

[eric-t]

1 hour ago, Toryu2020 said:

An interesting question - are you looking at all Yasutsugu or just one particular generation?

 

-t

I was looking at all Yasutsugu's in general.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Eric many of those you posted are from Yahoo.jp auctions with green papers and are very likely to be Gimei as Rivkin mentioned. Published Oshigata from reference books are your best way to compare Mei.

[JD808]

4 hours ago, eric-t said:

Even to my novice eyes the mon looks off

[eric-t]

2 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Eric many of those you posted are from Yahoo.jp auctions with green papers and are very likely to be Gimei as Rivkin mentioned. Published Oshigata from reference books are your best way to compare Mei.

So green papers are not legitimate? 

I guess I did read somewhere in the forum about that, now that you mention it. 

 

 

[eric-t]

Welp, I guess I managed to compile several gimei Yasutsugu's all in one location, since there aren't any sites or references for gimeis. Lol

 

Since receiving this sword, it has been a blessing and a curse because I can't seem to come to terms with the fact that such a beautiful blade is a gimei. I really wish the blade was just a mumei so I don't have to deal with the "false" aspect. And I already am aware with all the implications that comes with removing the mei, along with the cost so I don't want to deal with that either.

 

Wish there was a good reference to compare all 12 generations of Yasutsugu's instead of just comparing the "yasutsugu" kanji to finally put my skepticism about this sword to bed. 

[Chris Colman]

Eric, Nihonto.com has an article on early generation Yasatsugu mei.

regards chris colman

[Toryu2020]

Eric -

There are references out there with the information you seek. Also keep in mind they don't often put gimei on a bad sword - an unsigned work that is average or better garners more money with the big names - even in the days before widespread publishing people knew a crap sword when they saw one. There is a fine line for when restoration makes sense, in terms of art and finance. A tough spot to be in and I suspect many of us have that "one sword" that we ponder over...

 

-t

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Eric - love the research!  We all profit from efforts like this, and as you are learning, the deep-diving makes you much more knowledgeable, personally, and greatly valuable to the community. 

 

Concerning the mon, I have not researched this one, but from my other digs, I can say that these items are hand carved.  Even Kao have variation, as do kikusui.  In your case, I would look at all the examples and gather the ones that fit the predominant characteristics of one or two that are confirmed examples.  Anything that is too divergent (and I see a couple in your examples) are likely imitations.

 

Can't speak to mei, but they can vary in a known smith's work, but you must narrow the focus to a particular man.  They mei well vary and change from generation to generation.

[Geraint]

Dear Eric.

 

A couple of thoughts for you.  First, to answer your question, Older papers are generally discounted these days.  The bigger the name of the swordsmith the less value they have.  (I note that swords for sale on Aoi Art sometimes have both old and new papers side by side affirming the same judgement but thats by the by).  Certainly no one is going to accept them on a Yasutsugu coming out of Japan, or indeed anywhere.

 

I understand your feelings about your sword.  As a very new collector and well before the internet was even a thing, I bought a nice kaigunto with a wakizashi signed Kunihiro.  Even then I knew not to get too excited.  I still have the sword and still enjoy it for what it is.

 

By the way, in your research did you come across this?  http://www.sho-shin.com/edo-shimosaka.html  If not then you might find it usefull.

 

All the best.

[YOJIMBO]

On 7/8/2022 at 4:31 AM, JD808 said:

Even to my novice eyes the mon looks off

1 000 000 % fake

[YOJIMBO]

Back when I was collecting swords, I specialized in Yasutsugu. I've had quite a few. From the 1st generation to the 3rd generation. I can only confirm years later that if the sword - Yasutsugu  does not have NBTHK (new), it is 99.9999% fake. especialy in Japan

[Nihontocollector752]

I think the simple explanation here is that when looking at Yasatsugu, remember who you're really dealing with. This smith was tasked with reforging (re-tempering) many national treasure swords that were damaged after the war in the sengoku period. Their skill as smiths is unwavering so if you see an oblong shaped mon on the nakago or a weired mei then you should start to doubt. Simple. 

 

I think you have an issue with your evidence simply because you actively searched for bad examples as comparison to your bad example, we have all done this at some point to try and polish a turd, but, a turd is a turd. We all feel your pain. 

[Seth]

On 7/7/2022 at 5:49 PM, eric-t said:

 

 

Eric, for what it's worth I just went through the Yasutsugu Taikan and I have to agree with everyone else. I have just begun studying Yasutsugu so I am by no means close to knowledgeable but the mon looks way off. I know this thread is aging but just spent the last two hours trying to find one that is remotely close. No dice. 

 

Side question for the more experienced students how accurate are oshigata in regards to mon and mei? I have never had an oshigata and blade in hand at the same time.  

[PNSSHOGUN]

Oshigata are usually direct ink rubbings from the Nakago, the variances would theoretically be relatively small. 

[Jacques D.]

Hum guys, if you don't know which generation it is, you can't tell if it's a gimei, each generation of Yasutsugu has its own paricularities whether it's for the mei, the kamon and even the yasurime.

 

Kamon on the attached image (from Yasutsugu taikan)