Sword club?

[Rivkin]

Gentlemen, I know the subject have been approached many times, but....

Any interest in organizing Yet Another Club?

The purpose: looking at blades and talking blades.

Why not any of the existing clubs? Well, people don't talk blades there. They don't argue. They don't discuss what should they bring the next time. You can't just ask "could you bring your Ichimonji".

There is a Sensei. There is hierarchy. There are titles. There is (strict) protocol. Its like a child with Dojo father and an American country club mother. 

Maybe I am just inexperienced and this is the only way it can function.

Yet somehow you come to Oxford-Cambridge or even Athenaeum, have a good time after work and never even know who's the current president is. I am sure I am missing something - but why can't it be that simple?

 

Why not meet with blades say during a sword show? No hierarchy. No sensei. Collectors Non-anonymous. What's your favorite subject? Just discuss what we have and what we should show the next time. Japanese non-swords allowed.

I am personally in California, so lucky enough to be in potential position to attend both SF and Las Vegas. Or we can meet off-show-season in the area.

[Bazza]

Informal gatherings of like-minded people works for me.  For really, really serious stuff one should join the NBTHK and go to the formal kantei sessions, or at the least a well-organised kantei by a 'local' collector who has done the hard yards.  Sadly, that's too stratospheric for someone at my station in life, but it is the ideal aim of both scholarship and connoisseurship, to be sure.  Me, I just enjoy collecting what I can and showing and discussing it and reading and being a part of NMB and the great knowledge some of our luminaries share with the rest of us , at least, those like me.

 

BaZZa.

[Toryu2020]

Well as someone also in California and admittedly a bit biased,

We have local clubs, with experienced collectors and access to fine blades. However these clubs are run by the members, if they demand certain programs or material then I feel the organizations will work to provide. For over twenty years the NCJSC has provided Juyo or better level blades for our monthly hands-on kantei sessions. We provide full write-ups for each blade/school and at each meeting an opportunity to discuss, dissect, compare and contrast the workmanship. That opportunity is there for you each month, you do not have to be a member to attend.

 

We lost our Sensei in 1993, since then all we have been is a collective of like-minded collectors doing our best to provide for our members. Recently we polled the membership and asked what was they wanted from their club, the answer was more "education". So for more than a year now we have provided three different opportunities to learn each and every month, including the regular in-person hands-on kantei, a monthly "paper" kantei in the newsletter and an online Zoom kantei where we can discuss the works of different artists and schools from the safety and comfort of our own homes. I invite you to join us.

 

Back in the day the JSSUS used to see a lot of back and forth in their newsletter. Admittedly a lot of the discussions are now online  in forums just like this one. However I will say I have been writing for the NCJSC for almost thirty years and I have yet to see counterpoints or questions raised by our readers even though I know we have made mistakes. In every newsletter we invite folks to submit questions, feedback or articles for the newsletter. I know you to be a thoughtful and serious student of the subject, I invite you to submit your thoughts and questions, we would love to have your contributions. And it need not be a "paper", you have our email addresses, and you could even write to us here, we love nothing better than to talk swords.

 

Keep in mind also that not everyone is mad for Japanese swords, art and armour 24 hours a day 7 days a week 365 days a year like you and I. We can't fault folks or exclude them for not having the same level of passion, necessarily our programs have to shoot for the "Mean". That being said anyone with a deep interest and desire to learn and share is welcome, we invite you to please join us.

 

-tch

[Rivkin]

5 hours ago, Toryu2020 said:

We lost our Sensei in 1993, since then all we have been is a collective of like-minded collectors doing our best to provide for our members. Recently we polled the membership and asked what was they wanted from their club, the answer was more "education". 

 

Exactly! Different gatherings, different crowd can suit different needs. There is definitely room and need for education (teaching) styled events. I am thinking about something much more informal. I can imagine a possibility I am the only person of such inclination.

[Peter Bleed]

Well, gee. I have recently been thinking about whether or not I should re-boot with NBTHK. The JSSUS is history (and I deeply and sincerely appreciate the leadership that got it there). I'm also trying to think of what I would like/expect from a "sensei" and, frankly, I'm not coming up with much.

Sorry, but I think NMB is what we have and ought to endorse. If the gunshow scene was still active, if I could occasionally be presented with a 'discovery' in need to assessment, who needs an organzation? I've got a library. . .  and the NMB!

Peter

[Ken-Hawaii]

I was president of our local club, followed by my sword mentor the following year. We pushed heavily for education, with written agenda that could be studied before each monthly meeting. The response was anything but positive. It quickly became obvious that the majority of our 50 members just wanted to look at each other's blades, & jabber. The current officers read a few paragraphs from Yumoto's primer, & everyone seems happy.

 

Tremendously frustrating, & neither of us are still members. I think that NMB is the wave of the future, & that we, as members, should find more ways to support Brian.

[Peter Bleed]

Gee, Ken,

"looking at each other's blades, & jabbering" ... sound like a hobby to me. Heck, it sound wonderful.

Peter

[Toryu2020]

Kirill -

You are not the only one - I would ask though if you're in California where might you go to meet like-minded collectors, share and develop relationships that lead to invitations to informal gatherings? Not meaning to pick on you, I think we all need to support our sword clubs, online study is fun, convenient and will be more and more part of the study. However the people we look to for authoritative answers were all educated in person and hands on, I don't think there will ever be a substitute for that. In fact while I have talked about using Virtual tools to teach Kantei I would hate to see the loss of live study with live people and live blades. It is art after all and it has to be in-person, and there is too I think for the "jabbering" crowd as well as the committed scholar. (it is the same in the martial arts is it not Ken?)

 

Clubs are evolving to meet the times, now is not the time to unplug, we'll need smart people with a love for the subject if we're to build something that will serve the next generation of student...

 

-tch

[MHC]

Hummm...I'm hesitant to write here as my .02c worth of opinion is worth exactly that .02c, but here goes nothing.

 

Purely from my point of view, a hobby, any hobby should be first and foremost, fun and entertaining and personally fulfilling. I love Japanese swords, Japanese sword history and all it's complexity.

While it is important to know the details about the swords and fittings I collect, in the end it comes down to holding the item in my hand and simply enjoying it in all it's minutia.

 

I rather enjoy cars and motorcycles too, having had 45 cars and 6 motorcycles thus far, and once again I like to know the details about each and every one of them.

So needless to say, I have been to and involved in many a show/gathering/barbeque/Sunday coffee meets related to this hobby. Additionally, I was a member of a SCCA race team for 4 years (suspension specialist), where we were Pacific Northwest Champions for all of those 4 years, running a Porsche 911 in D production sports car class. so once again, deeply involved in the hobby.

 

Firearms have been another hobby of mine and I've been around firearms my entire life, I have owned, traded, bartered, swapped countless varieties. I have been to more gun shows than I have brain cells to remember them all. I have been a member of several clubs and shooting ranges, I've been a rangemaster and a personal level firearms trainer.

 

In all of these exploits, it all came down to having fun interacting with like minded people, sharing there proclivities related to the hobby at hand. This interaction was most fulfilling when it was at the simple level of sharing the experience, be it the last race, the last rifle, the car currently in the parking lot etc. Sure all of these interactions involved some level of detailed comment or comparison or data, but that was a lesser part of the overall experience.

 

I certainly understand where some collectors need to know absolutely everything possible about their subject hobby down to the most minute degree of detail, in order for them to truly, deeply enjoy their hobby. That level of commitment is commendable, admirable and necessary, as it allows for accurate overview of any given hobby, and keeps the riff-raff at bay. However, I'm afraid that level is not obtainable or even wanted for a large portion of any hobbies participants.

 

So with that being said, I too see the advantage of having arenas with a little more of a casual approach/environment regardless of what hobby it might be. 

 

After all, sitting around a buddies garage with several friends while working on his/her race car and drinking beer and talking shop IS FUN, why not the same with swords (maybe without the beer though, I could see problems arising with that).

 

Mark

[Ken-Hawaii]

I'm all for jabbering, but only if there's just a wee bit of knowledge behind those words. Yes, it's the same in martial arts, Tom, but there, we have a Sensei to lead us down "the path."

 

With Nihonto, I just love handing a blade to an "expert," & asking, "Okay, what do you SEE?" I can't tell you how many times my sword mentor did that to me!

 

Good points, Mark, but can you see interacting with other collectors, with no chance of learning more than what you came in with?

[MHC]

Shure I can Ken, but the same can be said for say a chemistry class, it's all well and fine to learn the subject when you attend class each day...but sometimes it is just as rewarding to make a soda volcano!

 

Mark

[Bruce Pennington]

Sounds like what happened to Ken's club is exactly what Kirill is looking for!

[Ken-Hawaii]

Yeah, Bruce, exactly what I was thinking. But I know that Kirill hasn't just been sitting back, & taking it easy, so how long would that stasis last?

[Rivkin]

21 hours ago, Toryu2020 said:

Kirill -

You are not the only one - I would ask though if you're in California where might you go to meet like-minded collectors, share and develop relationships that lead to invitations to informal gatherings? Not meaning to pick on you, I think we all need to support our sword clubs, online study is fun, convenient and will be more and more part of the study. However the people we look to for authoritative answers were all educated in person and hands on, I don't think there will ever be a substitute for that. In fact while I have talked about using Virtual tools to teach Kantei I would hate to see the loss of live study with live people and live blades. It is art after all and it has to be in-person, and there is too I think for the "jabbering" crowd as well as the committed scholar. (it is the same in the martial arts is it not Ken?)

Clubs are evolving to meet the times, now is not the time to unplug, we'll need smart people with a love for the subject if we're to build something that will serve the next generation of student...

 

SF club is definitely a worthwhile and interesting place to visit, in large thanks to you and Fred running the place. Regarding it being the source of needed in person education, I personally take it as a more argumentative point, but the notion did much to define the club's mission and especially its protocol - definitely for the benefit of some of the attendees.

What probably killed much of the real discourse in nihonto is papers. You don't know what the blade is? Paper it. Afterwords no need for the further discussion - the truth has been set. There are even multitudes of people screaming that any attempt at post-paper discussion is tantamount to treason...  

 

In most collectibles an item valuation is set by sort of collective perception of what its worth, so quite a few even high end collectors are moved to show and discuss their pieces so as to stay in touch with that general perception. Nihonto ones often feel they can only loose from their pieces being discussed.

 

[MHC]

Well there it is, in the last 2 lines that Kirill just posted.

 

"In most collectibles an item valuation is set by sort of collective perception of what its worth, so quite a few even high end collectors are moved to show and discuss their pieces so as to stay in touch with that general perception. Nihonto ones often feel they can only loose from their pieces being discussed."

 

The first sentence is a basic true-ism in regards to just about all hobbies that deal with collectable/valued items. However, first and foremost, most people collect things because they enjoy it, value is all well and fine, but secondary at best.

 

The second sentence is somewhat understandable, but just a shame if it is indeed true for Nihonto, and does explain a lot for me.

 

Up to this point, I had a different take on why high end Nihonto collectors were basically stand off-ish. Now with this possible new enlightenment, I can see another side to the story.

 

So it does appear we can learn things about this hobby, even without observing blades and doing Kantei.

 

Mark

[Gakusee]

2 hours ago, MHC said:

Well there it is, in the last 2 lines that Kirill just posted.

 

"In most collectibles an item valuation is set by sort of collective perception of what its worth, so quite a few even high end collectors are moved to show and discuss their pieces so as to stay in touch with that general perception. Nihonto ones often feel they can only loose from their pieces being discussed."

 

The first sentence is a basic true-ism in regards to just about all hobbies that deal with collectable/valued items. However, first and foremost, most people collect things because they enjoy it, value is all well and fine, but secondary at best.

 

The second sentence is somewhat understandable, but just a shame if it is indeed true for Nihonto, and does explain a lot for me.

 

Up to this point, I had a different take on why high end Nihonto collectors were basically stand off-ish. Now with this possible new enlightenment, I can see another side to the story.

 

So it does appear we can learn things about this hobby, even without observing blades and doing Kantei.

 

Mark

Mark, and you think the second approach might have nothing to do with privacy, concern for their items (being damaged), etc? How can you unquestioningly take at face value such statements as axioms and truths? You can also apply the second statement to other high end items such as eg expensive paintings (I am aware that approach is flawed) - do most people know where various private Renoirs and Rembrandts (merely examples) are and are these paraded publicly (if not owned by a museum or foundations or other public bodies)? 
in Japan, collectors are also very private. Perhaps with the exception of the top 3-4 individuals who are required by virtue of their ownership of Bunkanzai and Kokuho to display swords for the public to view. 
I feel Nihonto collectors allow their items to be discussed but only in a trusted circle of people who can appreciate them and who can be trusted not to damage them, not to disclose too much (private) information to the outside world (often for privacy reasons). At least that is my experience. 

[Rivkin]

Well...

I've been to plenty art collectors clubs and meetups. Wanted to find an overall picture of one of those, but its been years and all I can see is shot after shot of details and details...

Packs of absolutely the best Duhrer prints... full albums of Van Leyden. Couple of really good oils. Earliest Sharaku and Yoshitoshi. Easily.

The only thing which was quite a biiit uncomfortable is always being by far the poorest in the room, but the things you get to see are worth the humility... Even now, no longer keeping in touch, me a nobody with nonexistent standing in the community, I am sure I can hold half a dozen Rembrandts if I want to.

 

Nihonto world is definitely not the most pleasant hierarchy... not the most awful either, that's also for certain. Has its own caveats I guess.

 

[Gakusee]

I like good prints

 

But true, once people start displaying their items, one naturally starts calculating monetary values and starts comparing, drawing inferences….And that is what I was referring to about privacy and people’s perceptions. 

[WillFalstaff]

I like the idea. 

I know there’s some folks here around here in the Houston area. Back in CT, friends and I who collected European swords (modern remakes) usually got together and talked, drank, and used (cuttesting, Liechtenaur school practice, etc.). 

 

Of course, nihonto gatherings would have to have safety and security as number one, due to some pieces members would bring being $$$$. Aside from that, I think a relaxed chit-chat environment and improvisational learning are good atmosphere for a laid-back club. Kind of like NMB in real life. 

[robinalexander]

 

On 7/1/2022 at 9:21 PM, MHC said:

While it is important to know the details about the swords and fittings I collect, in the end it comes down to holding the item in my hand and simply enjoying it in all it's minutia.

 

Well said Mark.

[Toryu2020]

When I lived in Japan, I went to four or more Kantei-kai a month. After awhile people get to know you. They bring personal items from home to share at the meetings, or at Lunch beforehand or at dinner after. We would get invitations to peoples' homes and mini-study sessions with other collectors. Even though we had just seen top quality blades at the sword museum papered by the NBTHK at dinner people would say no way was that "real"! And they would dissect the blade, pointing out all the suspicious features, This was an eye-opening shock to me but I learned when you play in the big leagues nothing was sacred. Of course no one would ever make such comments at a meeting or to someone they didn't know and trust.

 

My point is that there is nothing wrong with the world of nihonto - all those doors will open for you - but you have to be a known entity - you have to be seen as a serious student and for that there is little substitute for in-person gatherings, rubbing shoulders, sharing a meal, sharing a drink - clubs are only as good as the people who show up - support your local sword club!

 

-t

[Rivkin]

13 hours ago, Toryu2020 said:

When I lived in Japan, I went to four or more Kantei-kai a month. After awhile people get to know you. They bring personal items from home to share at the meetings, or at Lunch beforehand or at dinner after. We would get invitations to peoples' homes and mini-study sessions with other collectors. Even though we had just seen top quality blades at the sword museum papered by the NBTHK at dinner people would say no way was that "real"! And they would dissect the blade, pointing out all the suspicious features, This was an eye-opening shock to me but I learned when you play in the big leagues nothing was sacred. Of course no one would ever make such comments at a meeting or to someone they didn't know and trust.

 

My point is that there is nothing wrong with the world of nihonto - all those doors will open for you - but you have to be a known entity - you have to be seen as a serious student and for that there is little substitute for in-person gatherings, rubbing shoulders, sharing a meal, sharing a drink - clubs are only as good as the people who show up - support your local sword club!

 

Tom, sorry I feel the need to be unusually frank even for an extremely abrasive person like myself.  Such is the subject.

Nihonto community indeed functions as every other collecting community - in a sense that it is a community. With alphas, betas, omegas and sigmas. There is always a group of alpha-betas who do not have the money, but are very aggressive in positioning themselves as pillars of the community and the only path to enlightment. Usually centered around one or two alpha-males who are dealers, who might not even be visibly present. I am used to every second post on every forum I ever made being followed by piles of dirt deposited by some from such "inner" circles. Repetative statements that one shall not make an argument because, well, I did not bow to their circle for thirty years, while they did. Some of those are your friends.

What I learned the hard way (after being served multiple criminal complaints) is that trying to build relationships with them is both dangerous and wasteful, since you'll be just junking your time at izakaya, while they will still be dedicating 100% of their effort to maintain the hierarchy. You'll know them for 20 years and "I above you" is the only thing that matters. Also, alike attracts alike, and these people are surrounded... well, by these people.

As a result I am careful in general not to meet folks not fitting a certain profile.

 

Jumping back to the club point - each club reflects a number of factors, background of participants, their relative strength etc. Yours is a good place, but with a specific mission. Does it feel like clubs in Japan? Not to me. Even less like something dedicated to tea ceremony or especially dedicated to the early prints. 95% of tea ceremony will be strictly a classroom with a show, acknowledging that the attendees are here only to observe one or two sessions. Prints tend to be far more relaxed, educated and egalitarian. Neither feels like a Dojo.

 

But the environment in which I learned a LOT is actually quite specific: a few people passing one or two, seldom three or ten good blades around and exchanging opinions about it. Does it work with the "general" crowd? NO. There will be someone who every meeting dedicates half an hour to a prolonged stupidity. I get the reason why your club functions the way it is - a hierarchical classroom-dojo for seven people. Great. Not advocating to change it.

 

My statement is simple: I in particular like a different format - few blades and extensive discussion. Did not see much of that in the US. Wonder if there is any interest in it.

[Toryu2020]

Kirill -

I am sorry you have had such a bad experience. While we can't recreate the high level kantei-kai seen in Japan (we don't have the swords) we do get together and share swords informally examining and learning together, it does happen and I am sorry you feel excluded.

 

-tch

 

PS I wish you would message me privately about any individual who acts in this way, I would not want any of my friends treating others in this way...