Help identify writing and info on sword

[jamesbranagan]

Hello I am trying to find some information on this sword that my grandfather had. My dad says it was machine made it does not appear to be. I’m curious what the writing says. Any information would be very much appreciated. Thank you, here are some photos

[Bruce Pennington]

Hi James, welcome!

You've got a Type 98 Japanese officer gunto (sword) there.  The saya (scabbard) would have originally been leather covered.  These often get torn up and/or lost over the years.  The writing is "47" and you might find the same number stamped on the tsuba/seppa set (handguard and spacers).  Since each blade is always slightly different in size and thickness, these parts are custom fit to each blade.  The numbers were put there to keep the various parts together during processing.

 

I'm curious about the perpendicular marks in the hamon (temper line).  Are the present the full length of the line, or just in this location?

[ROKUJURO]

James,

there is not much to see on your photos. Those of the NAKAGO (tang) are upside-down. The painted characters are usually assembly numbers or worker names and don't tell us anything about the possible maker. The blade itself does not look traditionally made to me. More detailed photos might help.

[Endrass]

Hi James,

 

In this excellent website you can see how your sword would look like with the leather cover. 

 

http://ohmura-study.net/727.html

 

If you browse it you can also find equivalent fittings to yours and in general great information on this subject.

 

Questions to more versed members: 

 

Can it be concluded that this is an end-of-war example, based on the absence of engraving on the fuchi, etc? 

 

I thought that the use of a glossy lacquered saya indicated the reuse of a civilian saya and probably a traditionally made blade...but I don't know if this is correct. It seems that it is not...

 

I hope the answers are of interest to James, otherwise it will look like I'm hijacking his thread.

 

Regards

[jamesbranagan]

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Hi James, welcome!

You've got a Type 98 Japanese officer gunto (sword) there.  The saya (scabbard) would have originally been leather covered.  These often get torn up and/or lost over the years.  The writing is "47" and you might find the same number stamped on the tsuba/seppa set (handguard and spacers).  Since each blade is always slightly different in size and thickness, these parts are custom fit to each blade.  The numbers were put there to keep the various parts together during processing.

 

I'm curious about the perpendicular marks in the hamon (temper line).  Are the present the full length of the line, or just in this location?

 

[jamesbranagan]

Hello Bruce, Thank you for the details, the marks in the hamon (temper line) do extend along the whole blade. Do you think this is machine or hand made? James

[jamesbranagan]

Hello Bruce, Thank you for the details, the marks in the hamon (temper line) do extend along the whole blade. Do you think this is machine or hand made? James

 

Thank you also to ROKUJURO and Endrass!! James

[Bruce Pennington]

"Machine made" is shorthand for "non-traditionally made" - ALL WWII blades were made by men, using various tools.  The most mechanized were the NCO Type 95s.  I am not the right person to answer your question, so hopefully someone with that skill will answer.  I have never seen a non-traditional blade with such a pattern, however this blade could have been made with all the same procedures as traditional blades, but if it was simply quenched in oil, rather than water, it would not receive the "traditional" title. 

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, Endrass said:

I thought that the use of a glossy lacquered saya indicated the reuse of a civilian saya and probably a traditionally made blade...but I don't know if this is correct. It seems that it is not...

You could be right Mario.  Maybe someone who knows more about civil fittings, like @Dave R or @PNSSHOGUN, can say if this one is a civil saya. 

[Kiipu]

2 hours ago, Endrass said:

I thought that the use of a glossy lacquered saya indicated the reuse of a civilian saya and probably a traditionally made blade...but I don't know if this is correct. It seems that it is not...

 

Nagoya Arsenal switched to wooden scabbards along with simplified fittings starting in 1944.

The Atsuta Factory & Military Swords

[jamesbranagan]

I wonder if the actual ray skin handle cover makes it more interesting all of the others I see out there have the artificial version.

 

7 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Hi James, welcome!

You've got a Type 98 Japanese officer gunto (sword) there.  The saya (scabbard) would have originally been leather covered.  These often get torn up and/or lost over the years.  The writing is "47" and you might find the same number stamped on the tsuba/seppa set (handguard and spacers).  Since each blade is always slightly different in size and thickness, these parts are custom fit to each blade.  The numbers were put there to keep the various parts together during processing.

 

I'm curious about the perpendicular marks in the hamon (temper line).  Are the present the full length of the line, or just in this location?

 

[Tensho]

2 hours ago, jamesbranagan said:

I wonder if the actual ray skin handle cover makes it more interesting all of the others I see out there have the artificial version.

 

 

No, lots of gunto have real ray skin. Some have reptile skin which I consider more unique. 

 

On a side note, your tsuka appears to be reinforced with steel sheet? Is that so, or just the photos? I can't really make out any Samegawa? 

[Endrass]

10 hours ago, Kiipu said:

 

Nagoya Arsenal switched to wooden scabbards along with simplified fittings starting in 1944.

The Atsuta Factory & Military Swords

Thanks Bruce . Very interesting document, Thomas. This is consistent with the quality of the sayas and that in one case that I was able to check, the saya under the haikan is not lacquered.

[Dave R]

From what I can see from the photo's it's a fairly typical Seki made late war shin-gunto. The apparent reinforces on the tsuka are more likely paper or wood-shaving shims, glued over the same to protect the ito from the rough nodules of such, which is standard.

 Better pics are needed before anything else can be said about it. I cannot see a hamon at all, no apparent stamps, and one of the pics is distorted as though from a copier.

[jamesbranagan]

Thanks Dave, the Hamon is hard to see but there are some interesting tempering vertical along the blade, this is the best photo I have. There are small pieces of paper folded and inserted in the threading on the tsuka, they look like Japanese newspaper. One day I will have them translated. I'm still not sure if this blade is machine mass produced or traditionally made. No other markings.

[Dave R]

 The pieces of newspaper will  be just that, folded bits of random paper used to give a better shape to the binding. I have seen cut wood shavings used for the same job on a WW2 era shin-gunto. The search term to use is hishigami.

 The perpendicular marks could be "ashi", breaks in the hamon to stop cracks spreading along the edge, but I reckon they are marks left from random cutting stuff up. A lot happens to a sword in 80 years.

 Did you find any stamps anywhere on the tang?

[jamesbranagan]

I posted this other side I found yesterday, any insights would be much appreciated ,Thanks!! James

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/profile/6721-jamesbranagan/

[Kiipu]

2 hours ago, jamesbranagan said:

I posted this other side I found yesterday, any insights would be much appreciated ,Thanks!! James

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/profile/6721-jamesbranagan/

 

@jamesbranagan, this was a little confusing for me having to go to your profile to see the pictures.  One picture in particular caught my eye and I will repost within this thread.  Exactly what part of the sword has this stamp and where is it located?  I have not seen this marking before and several of us on this forum would like more details.

@Bruce Pennington @BANGBANGSAN

 

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

2 hours ago, Kiipu said:

 

@jamesbranagan, this was a little confusing for me having to go to your profile to see the pictures.  One picture in particular caught my eye and I will repost within this thread.  Exactly what part of the sword has this stamp and where is it located?  I have not seen this marking before and several of us on this forum would like more details.

@Bruce Pennington @BANGBANGSAN

 

 

 

昭？

 

[jamesbranagan]

Thank you for your reply, it is on the far edge of the tang, here is a full picture.

[Kiipu]

Thanks James.  Your sword was made by Kazunori and there are several examples of his work on this forum that can be found by searching under "Kanematsu Kazunori".

関住兼松一則作 = Seki jū Kanematsu Kazunori Saku.

@mecox

[jamesbranagan]

Thanks very much!! I have learned a lot about this sword and its maker, James

[Bruce Pennington]

SOooo... the plot thickens!

 

To your original question James, the large Seki stamp, as far as we can know so far, was used by the Seki Cutlery Manufacturers Association to mark showato (non-traditionally made blades) that passed their quality control inspections.  There were some bad showato hurting the market in the late '30s, early '40s, and the sword industry asked the Association to run inspections to weed out the riff-raff.  It is my personal observation that blades with this large stamp are good quality and most of them have great hamon, giving the appearance that they were traditionally made.  But they likely used a steel other than tamahagane, or were oil quenched, either of which takes them out of the "traditional" category.  They were, likely, still good quality workmanship.

 

Interesting tidbit - The only 1945 blade I have on file with the large Seki is a Kazunori.  The only other Kazunori, with large Seki on file comes from Slough's book.

 

The stamp at the end is one I have not seen (doesn't surprise me that Thomas has seen one!).  It will go into the "unknown" category for now.  My thought is that it might be the forge logo where Kazunori made the blade.  Mal - @mecox - do we know what forge or shop he worked at?  There are several hotstamps of forges and they are always after the mei or at the end like this.

[mecox]

Bruce, sorry I cannot help, dont know this stamp.  From the nakago detail and mei cutting looks like an early war product (before 1942?).   The position of the stamp could also refer to a type of steel?

[Bruce Pennington]

7 hours ago, mecox said:

the stamp could also refer to a type of steel?

Thanks Mal.  You're right, there are stamps referencing the steel types too.  So, could be either one.

[Kiipu]

I asked Nick over at WRF to take a look at the logo and below are the two options that he came up with.

各農家の「山印」