Is this some kind of repair job?

[Fuuten]

Hi all,

 

The following blade on Aoi has some weird things above the hamachi. Is this some kind of repair work done by a smith? Also it just looks bad but the blade has Tokubetsu hozon (could be done after though). If its a repair its not mentioned which would be bad manners.
 

Den Enju

 

Edited June 24, 2022 by Fuuten
typo

[Ray Singer]

I saw those spots as well. The concentric rings look a bit like a microweld. There was a shop in Japan advertising their nihonto micro weld services on Instagram at one point. I am not sure if that is the answer though.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Definitely some nature of Umegane, if they are microwelds and not traditional Umegane it is very poor form to not mention this.

[mdiddy]

17 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Definitely some nature of Umegane

How can you say with such certainty? Have you considered to reach out to Tsuruta-san to ask him directly before passing a public judgement here?

[PNSSHOGUN]

Umegane are considered flaws and should be disclosed to buyers. If something looks like a flaw but isn't shouldn't that be prudent information in a listing?

[mdiddy]

28 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Umegane are considered flaws and should be disclosed to buyers. If something looks like a flaw but isn't shouldn't that be prudent information in a listing?

Maybe you are missing the point. I’m not questioning whether umegane are flaws nor how they are disclosed, I’m questioning if you know enough about what this is to publicly pass judgement. Maybe Tsuruta-san left it out of the description because he trusts his clientele to either 1) know what they are looking at or 2) if they have a question to reach out to him directly and ask. I question if you did either before publicly commenting on someone else’s sale.

 

And let’s be frank, your track record of accuracy is less than 100%. Besides your comments on my sword here that were off base, there was also this jewel recently where you went off half-cocked without conducting a little more background check.

[PNSSHOGUN]

This is a public forum of opinions, I encourage you to challenge every single member and their opinions if they offend you or differ from your reality. It is quite remarkable the things not disclosed in listings that are then clarified here later, to the benefit of everyone involved. 

[mdiddy]

No, this is not about being offended, this is about members that are passing questionable, unresearched, and/or under-informed opinions off as fact, particularly about others' live sales. And those members should be held accountable for the quality of their assertions just as you strive to hold seller's accountable to the quality of theirs, no?

[mdiddy]

And fwiw, I don't think a full list of authenticated references and sources are required for everyone to post their opinion.

 

Rather, a quick courtesy check-in with the seller to get their point of view, in advance of passing public judgement, would go a long way to preventing bad information from being publicly disseminated. Seriously, a quick email asking what are these odd specks on the sword is it. That way the seller knows the question is out there and can respond accordingly. And all this sarcastic childish chicanery about 'commiserations to the winner, etc' can be put to bed. Make sense?

[Brian]

Ok guys, points made. Let's get back on topic.
And I do agree that we need to be careful about making absolute statements when they are not proven facts. Opinions are fine. But statements of facts that are not if they can't be backed up.
Done now...let's move on.

[Sansei]

8 hours ago, Brian said:

Ok guys, points made. Let's get back on topic.
And I do agree that we need to be careful about making absolute statements when they are not proven facts. Opinions are fine. But statements of facts that are not if they can't be backed up.
Done now...let's move on.

 

When someone asks the vendor about this, please post the response here. Thanks.

[SteveM]

This is doing the rounds on Japanese twitter also. Consensus there seems to be that it is some sort of modern repair job. 

[Tensho]

Imo, looks like micro welding as ray says. The beading is very apparent. I have seen it several times on hard/impossible to replace firearm parts. Usually blends in fairly well on those, but with a highly polished piece and different metals I can see this standing out as much as it does. 

[Fuuten]

8 hours ago, SteveM said:

This is doing the rounds on Japanese twitter also. Consensus there seems to be that it is some sort of modern repair job.

So presumably this was after papering. I'm not sure if this would paper as is?

 

What was someone thinking

[Ray Singer]

This is what Tsuruta replied. 

 

"I think this place must be fixed as umegane." 

 

He did not answer with specifics on how this repair was done. 

 

 

[SteveM]

 

 

2 hours ago, Fuuten said:

So presumably this was after papering.

 

The paper itself is from December 2021, so my gut feeling is that this repair job was done before it got papered. There would be no need, and no financial incentive to do this after it had gotten papered. So presumably it got TH despite these blemishes, which, considering its age I don't think is out of the question. But that is as high as its going to go. 

[AntiquarianCat]

I’m not commenting on this sword but I’m curious about microwelding in general. Would they be using the new laser techniques that could weld say hagire while sparing the rest of the Hamon?

 

So long as it’s well disclosed I wouldn’t see the harm in helping a fatally flawed sword regain some of its dignity. Of course if it was done for kitaeware or some other non ruinous flaw it’s obviously foolish, but I still think it could help blades with nothing to lose.

[dkirkpatrick]

Interesting.  I like the idea of giving a sword dignity but I feel it would be nice of that  dignity could be preserved in a more forthright way.  Is there any precedent for following larger ware with gold such as done with pottery repair?  Perhaps this is silly in that it could present polishing challenges but was just curious.

 

Doug

[Nihonto Chicken]

They certainly look like ware repairs.  They beat the traditional umegane repairs all to hell, IMO.  They probably should be explicitly disclosed up front, but perhaps in time they will be as obviously recognized as the traditional repairs.  I have a nice wak with gold foil habaki that would be a great candidate for this, if cost effective and without much risk.

[C0D]

On 6/28/2022 at 7:52 PM, AntiquarianCat said:

I’m not commenting on this sword but I’m curious about microwelding in general. Would they be using the new laser techniques that could weld say hagire while sparing the rest of the Hamon?

 

So long as it’s well disclosed I wouldn’t see the harm in helping a fatally flawed sword regain some of its dignity. Of course if it was done for kitaeware or some other non ruinous flaw it’s obviously foolish, but I still think it could help blades with nothing to lose.

Is been done before, read "episode 11"

[Bugyotsuji]

A couple of years back I met a guy who does this micro laser welding and he had been asked to repair a hagiré.

[Ken-Hawaii]

12 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

he had been asked to repair a hagiré.

Did he repair it? It makes me wonder whether having any non-tosho do a repair somehow degrades the blade, more than the original problem.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Can't imagine any valid reason for a sword to have a Hagire repaired for collecting purposes, beyond sinister intentions.

[Fuuten]

27 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Can't imagine any valid reason for a sword to have a Hagire repaired for collecting purposes, beyond sinister intentions.

I actually can easily think of a couple, they are just not realistic or plausible 🤐

 

However, I was thinking what would be worse. A open blister with active rust or a repair similar to this? I'm not sure if this type of welding can actually effectively remedy those flaws but just as a hypothetical. I think this would be preferred though not so visually pleasing.

 

They used to forge and insert specific hada to repair certain flaws but this is an entirely different process.

[Bugyotsuji]

12 hours ago, Ken-Hawaii said:

Did he repair it? It makes me wonder whether having any non-tosho do a repair somehow degrades the blade, more than the original problem.

The blade was being handed over *while I was there, Ken. As I recall it was someone who was willing to try anything to ‘improve’ the look of an otherwise decent blade. I never saw the result.
 

*I wanted the laser micro-welder guy to replace a missing upright on a kabuto. One of two parallel prongs for a Maédaté had broken off. I sourced a piece of old period iron from Osafuné and had it shaped and fitted.