NOTCH on tang

[takakage]

Hi,

 

what do you think about it ?

 

 

number of polished, this blade has got ubu ha

number ok kizus, no kizu on this sword

number of men killed by this sword

 

many stories about this notch...........

[Brian]

Patrick,

 

I have seen notches like that on many blades, and up to now have not had a single explanation. It is not uncommon, and I highly doubt anything to do with combat.

Maybe something as simple as marks to identify a blade when the koshirae or tsuba comes back from the maker or something?

Would love to know any other theories.

 

Brian

[Hermes]

Maybe something as simple as marks to identify a blade when the koshirae or tsuba comes back from the maker or something?

Brian

I have seen a lot of notch's on blades as well and i would bet the farm if i was a betting man your right on the money above Brian.

[shan]

Hi,

I have a few shinto Blades that have two or three Notches but under the habaki on the mune side.

I also have a couple with them in line on both sides of the nakago at this point (one on mune and one on ha side)

I thought it might be the position of the Habaki at first or an intended alteration ,but now i am not so sure.

If the honami school did the Burnished striations under the Habaki as an identifier perhaps other schools of polish used the notches?

I have more with Notches than striations.

Not a useful input for you but there you go.

regards

shan

[Brett]

I find this really interesting, especially that the notches vary in size. In my most limited experience with Nihonto, I have never seen these before.

 

They look purposeful for me, which nearly completely rules out combat damage - along with the fact that the notches are on the tang. The attacker would have had to have placed four exact cuts THROUGH the tsuka. I don't think so.

 

The note about the Koshirae is very possible.

 

I am still deadly curious, but I don't have any good guesses as to why they are here. I guess the note about the striations is possibly, but I don't see why they would cut into the nakago itself.

 

I will do some further research on the matter.

 

Thanks,

-Brett

[Brian]

I can't say I know what they are, but I can say what they aren't.

They aren't from any form of combat, and they aren't from polishing.

Maybe the smith made a few swords at the same time and they were a reference of which one was which before they were signed. I guess the real answer is lost in the depths of time.

 

Brian

[Brett]

I guess the real answer is lost in the depths of time.

 

Yes. That is the shame about a lot of our hobby (perhaps obsession is a better word?) - there are some questions we can't answer.

 

I expect this is one of them. Perhaps with further study we will find out, but for now, we can only guess...

 

Thanks,

-Brett

[Grey Doffin]

I can remember seeing these on Gunto; not sure I've seen them on earlier blades. If they are a Gunto thing it likely has to do with inventory in some way. Guess I don't know.

I also have a faint memory of a thread from a year or so ago on the same subject. A search through NMB archives might bring it up.

Grey

[shan]

Here is a quick image of one that is shinto and has the notches.They got a bit cleaned in the polish but are there non the less.

The blade has a punched and irregular Mekugi Ana.

 

 

 

I will hunt out some of the others.

Shan

[trygve]

the nothes are marks for identify arsenal blades wich where issued for soldiers in war times or when defending castles. the nothes are a way of keeping track of blades and wich saya and tsuka fit that particular blade. this was a topic a couplenof years ago on the the old messageboard. these blades where kept undressed foe easy service. you never see good quality blades with these nothes. trygve

[takakage]

Hi,

here is an other photo of the tang, the reverse side taken from our french forum

 

yoshichika is an hand made smith , this blade has got koto suguta ko itame ji nie ; so it is strange to find such notch on the nakago.

[trygve]

additional info.

I was referring to arsenal and war time in the old days, during koto and shinto times.

castle did have a lot of unmounted blades of swords, spears and polearms for use when mounting soldiers. many blades where made in bulk and maybe many was collected from the battlefield after victory to be used for mounting large armies. t his is just my speculation of course.

regards trygve

[Brett]

Trygve,

 

Grey Doffin said they saw a Gunto with these notches.

 

Do you think that this means it is a re-mounted Koto or Shinto blade, or just that they continued the use of notches into these periods?

 

:?

 

Thanks,

-Brett

[Grey Doffin]

If I'm remembering properly, I've seen the notches near the bottom of the nakago of gunto, WWII swords, not earlier blades remounted as gunto. I could be mistaken, though.

Grey

[Brett]

Grey,

 

Hmm.

 

From what we know:

A) The notches have appeared on Gunto before

B) The notches have appeared on Koto and Shinto swords before

 

So, I can gather two possible conclusions from that.

 

A) The notches were used as the inventory system in both Koto/Shinto and the later periods.

B) The notches on the Gunto were added to older swords refitted for the war.

 

Which do you find more likely?

 

Thanks,

-Brett

[Brian]

Brett,

There is no proof that the notches on pre-WW2 swords are the same as the ones used on Gunto. I have seen them on both.

I expect that the ones on earier swords were done for the reasons mentioned, and the ones on Gunto were used to match up blades and koshirae.

I think some parts might also have markings on WW2 swords, such as tsuba and seppa, and likely these marks were done to make sure the right parts were put together when assembling the sword.

I think we are dealing with 2 different marking systems here. The notches would be a logical system to use since they are relatively unobtrusive and under the tsuka.

 

Brian

[Brett]

 

Didn't even consider that.

 

I get where you are coming from. Sorry about that...

 

Thanks,

-Brett