unsigned sword, curious about it!

[vieira]

Hello,

 

I am a european edged weapons colector, i know (almost) nothing about Japanese swords, this sword was in a old family house for display with many other european edged weapons, the house dates to the times Portuguese had MACAU and GOA and the family said the sword belonged to one of his ancestors that worked most of his life in GOA/INDIA and MACAU/CHINA.

 

As i european edged weapons colector i am very impressed with the quality of the blade, very sharp and solid, but i guess all Japanese swords are of good quality so that means.... i would like to know some of your opinions of the style and period of the sword.

 

Many thanks for all help!

 

Vieira

[Mark S.]

Difficult to determine much from the photos and state of polish.  Shape hints at late Shinto into Shin-Shinto. Fittings appear to have seen better days.  The appearance of the area in the Ha-machi (area where the sharpened edge meets the tang) 'looks' like it might be rather healthy and blade may not have seen too many polishes, but that is pure speculation.  Others may have other opinions, but that's the best I can do for now.  

 

Trying not to assume what you do or don't know, just want to be sure... Do not touch blade with bare hands, NEVER clean nakago (tang).  You can gently clean blade with microfiber cloth or plain soft tissue (non-scented or no other lotion added tissue) and as close to 100% isopropyl alcohol as possible.  DO NOT use any type of metal or jewelry polish of any sort.  A shiny sword is NOT a well polished sword.  Huge difference.  Also, after cleaning, a bit of light oil (sewing machine oil) or Japanese choji scented oil (from sword supply dealers) may help as well to stop additional rusting (very light coat).  Don't be afraid to ask questions before you do anything to blade or fittings. 

[vieira]

To be honest i already clean some of the blade, i know Japanese procedures are diferent from european, as a european weapons colector i maintain my 200 swords and now something about metals and restoration process, i also by curiosity saw a video of the Japanese polish process, and its something that in first steps is very agressive and takes out metal, so i think the only thing i did that was a light cleaning machine polish with cotton would not arm the metal in anyway, am i wrong ? i also notice that this blade ger much more hoter in the polish process than european steel, any ideia why ?

 

Tks.

 

Best Regards,

 

Vieira 

[Brian]

Do NOT polish in ANY way. This is not a Western or European sword. It is not treated the same way, and their processes have zero to do with this. Oil and wipe...that is all.

[AntiquarianCat]

It might be worth mentioning there are many documented cases where people have lost old and desirable blades because of leaving them in the hands of a polisher without formal training. I’ll admit I don’t know much about polishing but my understanding is a classically trained polisher will seldom be “very agressive and take out metal” especially if the overall geometry is intact like yours. The reason is a sword’s lifespan is measured in metal and once you run out of hard outer steel the sword is effectively dead. That’s why trained polishers always endeavor to remove as little metal as possible.

[vieira]

33 minutes ago, AntiquarianCat said:

It might be worth mentioning there are many documented cases where people have lost old and desirable blades because of leaving them in the hands of a polisher without formal training. I’ll admit I don’t know much about polishing but my understanding is a classically trained polisher will seldom be “very agressive and take out metal” especially if the overall geometry is intact like yours. The reason is a sword’s lifespan is measured in metal and once you run out of hard outer steel the sword is effectively dead. That’s why trained polishers always endeavor to remove as little metal as possible.

 

Yes but that factor is universal for any edged weapon, as i said i used only cotton polish no way it could take out metal its just a soft cleaning,  and has i said earlier i watched some videos of the Japanese traditional process, this blade because of the black spots if it went to Japan to polish they would take a much more agressive 1st step to go deeper in the metal, noting compared to cotton! ofcourse i will not use anything with the capacity to scratch the metal.

 

tks.

 

Vieira

[Mark S.]

Please go here: 

There is a discussion on amateur polishing.  While it is a bit strongly worded and really aimed at people who pretend to polish Japanese swords as a 'hobby' or for whatever other reason they feel it is OK, I think it may answer some questions on why polishing Japanese swords ISN'T like any other type of sword.  I also don't want to re-hash all this information here.  Please read it and understand it is not a personal criticism of you... but we all have to learn somehow and sometimes education comes with a bit of pain.  Hope you stay with us and continue to learn!

 

Not sure what you mean by "cotton polish", but if it is a mechanical process (spinning wheel?) then it isn't doing the blade any good.

 

[Baba Yaga]

Check this out http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/measure.htm You can give us some measurements. 

Doesn't look like you scratched it in an attempt to clean it, but advise to stop. That rust is much deeper than it looks, it always is. 

[vieira]

Ok! but it was only cotton! the blade was not scratch our wound in any way! i would love to know the diference betwen european and Japanese processes, i am portuguese, we portuguese were the first europeans ones to reach Japan, we battle samurais and win most of the time, samurais were not used to fight the european style with rapiers and left hand daggers! But i admit these Japanese blades are something else in sharpness, european blades are not so sharp.

 

Tks

 

Vieira

[vieira]

12 minutes ago, Baba Yaga said:

Check this out http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/measure.htm You can give us some measurements. 

Doesn't look like you scratched it in an attempt to clean it, but advise to stop. That rust is much deeper than it looks, it always is. 

Very interesting here it goes.

 

nakago -> 82cm
magasa -> 67cm
kissaki -> 6cm
kisane-> 0.6cm

[Jean]

nakago -> 82cm
magasa -> 67cm
kissaki -> 6cm

 

 

??????

[vieira]

4 minutes ago, Jean said:

nakago -> 82cm
magasa -> 67cm
kissaki -> 6cm

 

 

??????

Makes no sense ? maybe i did not understand the meaning...! sory i am newbiew in Japanese swords... all sword with tang measures 82 cm, the blade is 67 cm

[WillFalstaff]

Hi Vieira,

 

Here is how tamahagane steel is made:

 

[jt nesbitt]

Bruno-

 You are "polishing" this sword on an electric buffer with a cotton wheel hence "I notice this blade get much more hoter in the polish process".

 There is a disconnect in what the word "polish" means. In the nihonto world it means something very different than what you are used to. It is in fact NOT about making a surface more homogenous in the way that you would imagine adding luster to a piece of gold.

 Here's the secret to Japanese steel as opposed to western steel - The way in which it is crafted - the metal itself is never in a liquid state. It is NEVER homogenous. It is worked in a semi-solid state. Even the foundational material - Tamahagane is a semi-solid in it's hottest state. The beauty of the steel is only revealed when the "Togishi" (sword polisher) flattens the roughness of the raw forging in a manner that reveals the layers of steel rather than blending them  - the way a buffing wheel will.

 This is not like modern knifemaking either, where "damascus" steel which is really just different grades of liquified modern steels, are then acid etched to reveal a texture.

 Traditional Japanese polish uses stones and water. The steel flattened and kept cool always. -- JT

[Mark S.]

20 minutes ago, jt nesbitt said:

 Traditional Japanese polish uses stones and water. The steel flattened and kept cool always. -- JT

And selecting the correct stones (many many different types) and techniques to match the time period, school, and smith to bring the blade back to what the smith originally intended and to see the most in the blade.  Polishing is not a one size fit all… it is specific to the blade with a multitude of techniques.  Clean and shiny isn’t the goal.

[Jean]

Makes no sense ? maybe i did not understand the meaning...! sory i am newbiew in Japanese swords... all sword with tang measures 82 cm, the blade is 67 cm

 

nakago= Tang = 82-67= 15 cm

nagasa= cutting edge = 67cm

[vieira]

14 hours ago, jt nesbitt said:

Bruno-

 You are "polishing" this sword on an electric buffer with a cotton wheel hence "I notice this blade get much more hoter in the polish process".

 There is a disconnect in what the word "polish" means. In the nihonto world it means something very different than what you are used to. It is in fact NOT about making a surface more homogenous in the way that you would imagine adding luster to a piece of gold.

 Here's the secret to Japanese steel as opposed to western steel - The way in which it is crafted - the metal itself is never in a liquid state. It is NEVER homogenous. It is worked in a semi-solid state. Even the foundational material - Tamahagane is a semi-solid in it's hottest state. The beauty of the steel is only revealed when the "Togishi" (sword polisher) flattens the roughness of the raw forging in a manner that reveals the layers of steel rather than blending them  - the way a buffing wheel will.

 This is not like modern knifemaking either, where "damascus" steel which is really just different grades of liquified modern steels, are then acid etched to reveal a texture.

 Traditional Japanese polish uses stones and water. The steel flattened and kept cool always. -- JT

 

Hello!

 

Yes i understand now that the "polish" word is very diferent from nihonto world to european weapons worlds, the Japanese polish envolves reshaping of the sword, and going much more into the deeper metal layers than the european polishing thats why i said earlier that from what i see this blade if went to Japan would have a much more agressive sanding! The Japanese process is unthinkable for a european weapons colectors like me because it destroys the patine that is a layer/deposit of materials that is formed with time  and it's impossible to recreate in other way, its what values and gives autenticity to a 800 years old sword! From what i understand Japanese like to preserve the swords like they were made yesterday! To achieve this goal overtime even for a sword that is well preserved these polished process is a "must" because every metal in contact with just the AIR will indeed develop the patine layer. All of this makes the colecting of Japanese swords a very strange process to me! You have a blade and the value of the blade is very dependent of the polish process, that i guess must be very expensive and envolving sending the blade to Japan!

 

About the manufactor of the swords and the metal used, from what i research earlier, Japanese iron as encounter in nature is of very poor quality, so the Japanese created a process to make it better, they are great craftsman and make this process almost like a religion, the Japanese swords are of fantastic quality, one of bests in the world, and the sharpest i have seen! Oposed to this, in europe, in Soligen/Germany, there is in nature one of the best iron in all world, so this town is well known for centuries for making the best quality blades! When europeans reach Japan (the Portuguese like myself!) there were battles betwen the Samurais and the Portuguese, i have read some chronices about it, they were quite impressed with the quality of the Japanese blades but Japanese blades had 1 big problem against europeans, in Japan metal armours where not used, in Europe they were used for centuries and so they were quite developed, using tempered steel that was bullet prooft, these katanas stand no chance against this armours, imagine such sharp katanas agains a big layer of tempered steel, the result would be disastrous for the katana.

 

Its a fantastic world this of katanas, tks all for the information you are providing me!

 

Regards,

 

Vieira

[ChrisW]

What you said is true, Japanese weapons did not evolve to take on heavy steel and iron plate armor. It evolved alongside the contemporary style of Japanese armor which is made from lacquered leather and metal pieces, with gaps to allow for a lot of mobility which is required to wield such a weapon effectively. This evolution is in fact very similar to the process by which weapons like the macuahuitl and reinforced cotton jerkin in Mexico evolved (though the point in Mexica warfare was to capture your opponent alive in most cases). However, I wouldn't view European weapons as superior necessarily.. different tools with different perks and flaws. Japanese blades tend to bend before they break; and in most cases, a bent blade can be straightened and used again. European blades tend to be hardened through and will snap more often, reducing them to scrap. On the flip side, European weapons were easier to mass produce and replace; whereas the Japanese could do close to the same, the results were often inferior quality (bundle swords).

I think they're both appreciable for different reasons. I've collected both and I appreciate and conserve them differently. Though I do tend to use my Choji oil for both!

[DoTanuki yokai]

There is very much that i would want to say about the "poor quality" of Japanese steel or their armor but i will only stick to the Japanese sword polishing.

 

A Japanese polisher will not remove more metal then neseccary and will do his best to remain the original shape.

The polisher also must be an expert in the identification of the swords manufacturer, only if he knows who made the sword he can chose the right stones and process for the polish. 

Professionally polished blades will not just have a flat polished surface but will have a microstructure with higher and deeper parts that result from polishing stones that are softer or harder then different parts of the blade.

Most polishing pastes for metal use corundum (aluminum oxide), this stuff is harder then any steel and will make a nice flat mirror polish that is not what we want for a Nihonto.

The place where you can enjoy the Patina is the Nakago (tang) of the sword as this part isnt oiled or gets polished.

 

The blades shape look for me Kanbun Shinto style with not much curvature and the tangs patina could fit to this i think. (Mid 17th century)

But i dont put that much weight in my opinion of the patina because this is the part that can be easiest influenced by many factors like how it was preserved or if someone tried to make it look older with different methods.

Also the color of the Nakago patina can be very different on photos and light conditions.

I cant really say more about the blade because the condition of the polish does not allow to see more.

 

If you want to learn more and dont want to spend on books yet you can find many informations here http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/information.html & http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/terms.html.

I would start with http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/treatment.html and http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/appreciate.html.

[dschumann]

I am also new to Nihonto.

 

I also have knowledge of other historic weapons.

 

The first thing you need to do is to realize that your biggest foe is what you "think" you know. Once that happens, you can start to learn something.

Quote

 

 

[Baba Yaga]

10 hours ago, ChrisW said:

What you said is true, Japanese weapons did not evolve to take on heavy steel and iron plate armor. It evolved alongside the contemporary style of Japanese armor which is made from lacquered leather and metal pieces, with gaps to allow for a lot of mobility which is required to wield such a weapon effectively. This evolution is in fact very similar to the process by which weapons like the macuahuitl and reinforced cotton jerkin in Mexico evolved (though the point in Mexica warfare was to capture your opponent alive in most cases). However, I wouldn't view European weapons as superior necessarily.. different tools with different perks and flaws. Japanese blades tend to bend before they break; and in most cases, a bent blade can be straightened and used again. European blades tend to be hardened through and will snap more often, reducing them to scrap. On the flip side, European weapons were easier to mass produce and replace; whereas the Japanese could do close to the same, the results were often inferior quality (bundle swords).

I think they're both appreciable for different reasons. I've collected both and I appreciate and conserve them differently. Though I do tend to use my Choji oil for both!

whereas the Japanese could do close to the same, the results were often inferior quality (bundle swords).

 

I've read this in many books too. However, if the 16c war blades were inferior, why so many exists today in such good of shape? Something to think about.   
 

[ChrisW]

Because the Japanese have a culture that reveres and preserves the sword? Also, many survive because so many were made and many of them ended up in armories that kept them for decades until they were dispersed by WWII and modern collectors.

Also, that isn't saying that ALL 16th century swords are inferior.. but a lot of "bundle" swords are considered that when compared to their contemporary counterparts.

Of course, there is also a lot of other reasons to consider too.

[vieira]

I never said that Japanese swords are inferior! i only said most of the natural iron in Japan is of less quality than in some other places in the world! that is a different thing, a pure geological issue! but even with that limitation Japanese craftsman invented technology to make good steel and good weapons! Comparing these swords quality to the European, most European swords are of inferior construction quality than the Japanese. The Europeans had the advantage of having good steel without needing to do a wasteful process like the Japanese and of course there were also very good craftsman in Europe. One interesting thing is that Japanese documented the fabrication process of the swords, Europeans didn't, we know very little about the fabrication process of the best European swords, in most places it was strictly forbidden do to documentation of the building process, it was considered a state secret and so the knowledge was passed only by word between generations of families and eventually lost with the arrived of firearms.

 

I currently study the blade i post earlier, today if i have time i'am gone measure all the blade at different points.

 

Yesterday i was analyzing the sharp edge and i encounter 2 faults, the blade has damages in 2 places, i guess from knocking another object, maybe in battle ? who knows!! my question is, the Japanese polish process will fix these kind of things ? or this blade is either the way damage for life ? How often this kind of damage appears in old Japanese swords ?

 

Tks all again.

 

Regards,

 

Bruno Vieira

[dschumann]

4 hours ago, vieira said:

I never said that Japanese swords are inferior! i only said most of the natural iron in Japan is of less quality than in some other places in the world! that is a different thing, a pure geological issue! but even with that limitation Japanese craftsman invented technology to make good steel and good weapons! Comparing these swords quality to the European, most European swords are of inferior construction quality than the Japanese. The Europeans had the advantage of having good steel without needing to do a wasteful process like the Japanese and of course there were also very good craftsman in Europe. One interesting thing is that Japanese documented the fabrication process of the swords, Europeans didn't, we know very little about the fabrication process of the best European swords, in most places it was strictly forbidden do to documentation of the building process, it was considered a state secret and so the knowledge was passed only by word between generations of families and eventually lost with the arrived of firearms.

 

I currently study the blade i post earlier, today if i have time i'am gone measure all the blade at different points.

 

Yesterday i was analyzing the sharp edge and i encounter 2 faults, the blade has damages in 2 places, i guess from knocking another object, maybe in battle ? who knows!! my question is, the Japanese polish process will fix these kind of things ? or this blade is either the way damage for life ? How often this kind of damage appears in old Japanese swords ?

 

Tks all again.

 

Regards,

 

Bruno Vieira

 

My personal theory is that Japanese swords were high quality BECAUSE of the relative scarcity of iron, not despite it.

 

Combine this with relative isolation of Japan, the sword culture developed in Japan in ways it never did in Europe.

 

 

[vieira]

2 hours ago, dschumann said:

 

My personal theory is that Japanese swords were high quality BECAUSE of the relative scarcity of iron, not despite it.

 

Combine this with relative isolation of Japan, the sword culture developed in Japan in ways it never did in Europe.

 

 

 

 

Blade composition
Era	Carbon (edge)	Carbon (body)	Manganese	Silicon	Phosphorus	Copper
1940s	1.02%	1.02%	0.37%	0.18%	0.015%	0.21%
1800s	0.62%	1.0%	0.01%	0.07%	0.046%	0.01%
1700s	0.69%	0.43%	0.005%	0.02%	0.075%	0.01%
1500s	0.5%	0.5%	0.005%	0.04%	0.034%	0.01%

In 1993, Jerzy Piaskowski performed an analysis of a katana of the kobuse type by cutting the sword in half and taking a cross section. The analysis revealed a carbon content ranging from 0.6 to 0.8% carbon at the surface and 0.2% at the core.

 

I think the quality of the katana is directly related to the fabrication process! A viking sword has more carbon than most 1500 era katana swords. Fantastic swords from the "masters" could have secrets that enable them to be better than most... we don't know!! but i strong believe in that possibility.

 

[WulinRuilong]

7 hours ago, vieira said:

I think the quality of the katana is directly related to the fabrication process!

OfCourse. See this...The shortcomings of materials can be compensated by craftsmanship

 

[dschumann]

2 hours ago, WulinRuilong said:

OfCourse. See this...The shortcomings of materials can be compensated by craftsmanship

 

 

This is also my point exactly. The relative scarcity of iron led to Japanese smiths developing more skill in doing more with what they had. 

 

And the relative isolation of Japan led to the preservation of these swords. 

 

[vieira]

And what do you guys think about the possibility of "war swords" and "Uniform swords", what i mean is, a samurai could have a sword that only used in special events (passed from generation to generation maybe) and one or several war swords, i referer this because some swords seem so well preverved that i doubt where used in battle, steel agains steel, sword against sword must have done some damage, any of you aware of this possibility ?

[Shugyosha]

It makes perfect sense to me. Some swords, those made in the provinces of Mino, Bungo and Kaga for example had reputations for their usefulness as weapons and were prized for this quality.

Higher grade swords reflected their owner’s status and were a commodity which were used as ceremonial gifts or exchanged to buy favour or seal an agreement. It wouldn’t make good sense to risk these. 
 

Consequently, if a samurai had a choice, they would probably have a weapons grade sword for battle or for daily use and keep the valuable heirlooms locked away to avoid loss or damage. Despite their status, most samurai weren’t wealthy and so many had to make do with whatever they had. 

[AntiquarianCat]

On 5/18/2022 at 11:22 AM, vieira said:

 

 

Blade composition
Era	Carbon (edge)	Carbon (body)	Manganese	Silicon	Phosphorus	Copper
1940s	1.02%	1.02%	0.37%	0.18%	0.015%	0.21%
1800s	0.62%	1.0%	0.01%	0.07%	0.046%	0.01%
1700s	0.69%	0.43%	0.005%	0.02%	0.075%	0.01%
1500s	0.5%	0.5%	0.005%	0.04%	0.034%	0.01%

In 1993, Jerzy Piaskowski performed an analysis of a katana of the kobuse type by cutting the sword in half and taking a cross section. The analysis revealed a carbon content ranging from 0.6 to 0.8% carbon at the surface and 0.2% at the core.

 

I think the quality of the katana is directly related to the fabrication process! A viking sword has more carbon than most 1500 era katana swords. Fantastic swords from the "masters" could have secrets that enable them to be better than most... we don't know!! but i strong believe in that possibility.

 

I would refer you to the many studies done by M. Yaso, because he had access to modern xray technology it is possible to get a very accurate elemental composition without destroying a sword.  https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Study-of-strength-and-toughness-in-Japanese-sword-Yaso-Takaiwa/f75e6d7a92043c923999763505fdbc726329cc26
A free version can be found here 

[International Journal of Materials and Product Technology vol. 42 iss. 1_2] Yaso, M._ Takaiwa, T._ Minagi, Y._ Kanaizumi, T._ Kubota, K._ No - Study of strength and toughness in Japanese sword produced from Tamahagane steel by - libgen.li.pdf

Remarkably enough Yaso found their smiths did such a good job at stamping away impurities that it holds up well even by modern standards.

That the spine and ji have milder steel is probably intended for flexibility as one of the likely ways they made utsuri required mild steel and that certainly made them more resilient to breakage. Probably important given the high 50s to mid 60s hrc yaso and others found for edge hardness.

As for western swords the carbon content might not be especially relevant. I hope you will forgive this non peer reviewed source but study of western swords shows an edge hardness often below 50HRC so I don’t know what the point of mentioning a high carbon content everywhere is; it is possible because as you mentioned Europe was careless in preserving its swords surface and so most medieval have extensive damage to edge that that study is skewed by the harder layers being lost or mineralized but at the least it shows there isn’t much apparent effect from a uniformly high C.

 

This is in no way to say Europe did not have equally fantastic blades, just that the science doesn’t support most of these metallurgy claims. By the way some of the best regarded European traditions like Toledo developed an oddly similar knack for having milder steel in the core of their swords https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328748284_Welding_by_Hot_Forging_of_Two_Carbon_Steels_for_the_Manufacture_of_Spanish_and_Japanese_Weapons

There are interesting parallels. Perhaps some kind of convergent evolution?

And regarding polishing being aggressive. My understanding is that if the blade condition is good little more than a finishing polish is needed. Which might remove a few microns of steel. Case in point many treasure swords and temple swords are virtually unchanged from when they were made. Deeper polish is only done when there is a serious problem like rust and even then they try to limit what’s removed.
 

Preventing rust has served to preserve blades and their surface. You have to remember even black rust “patina” is not stable on a generational timescale. Still going to chemically grow and turn useful edge and surface into encrustations, and mineralization obliterates whatever nice metallurgical effects we would want to admire or study. The problem is so serious that the late Darcy endorsed oiling nakago to arrest mineralization. I can only imagine how unfortunate it would be for the sword and any study thereof  if we let the edge surface mineralize away. https://blog.yuhindo.com/oil-your-nakago/?sfw=pass1651334746