Top 10 Swordsmiths In Japanese History

[Ooitame]

I have also handled signed Norishige and Uda Kunifusa in good condition are those not museum quality? Those are also members here.

[Nihontocollector752]

1 hour ago, Ooitame said:

@Nihontocollector752 I have a zaimei uchigatana Norimitsu that is in great condition and reminds me of Oei. Tanobe san, also calling it an excellent example in a highly specialized sayagaki style. Would that qualify for museum quality or no?

No. But it sounds lovely.

[Nihontocollector752]

1 hour ago, Ooitame said:

I have also handled signed Norishige and Uda Kunifusa in good condition are those not museum quality? Those are also members here.

Again No, but they sound lovely.

 

I think the OP should set out the criteria they are looking for and not leave it open ended, that would be the best starting point. OP please give us a few criteria to adhere to?

 

 

[Baba Yaga]

4 hours ago, Rivkin said:

 

How many participants in this thread own (present tense) two Juyo or more?

 

I pay 2 Juyo swords worth of Tax's and that's no Shift. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

You are lucky to only have 37% tax rate at higher incomes, we have about that for an "average" income.

[David Flynn]

John, what do you class as an "Average" income.    Also, Australia's Tax system is on  a sliding scale.

[PNSSHOGUN]

According to the ABS the current average income is reported at just over 90,000AUD a year, or 1800ish a week: https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/labour/earnings-and-working-conditions/average-weekly-earnings-australia/nov-2021

 

It is also far more depressing when taxes are going to a government this incompetent.

[Shugyosha]

5 hours ago, Nihontocollector752 said:

No. But it sounds lovely.

 

Jimmy,

I think we need a definition of "museum quality". Are Juyo blades museum quality? Many NMB members own swords of that standard and a few will own Tokubetsu Juyo blades. Others will own blades of that sort of quality with lower or no papers.

 

To make a general point, it can be the case that Japanese swords in museums outside of Japan (at least this side of the pond) aren't very good examples.

 

In the UK many museums' collections were derived from donations made by Victorian collectors whose tastes were quite eclectic and who got hold of items exported to feed the Western curiosity with all things oriental. Consequently, quantity tends to trump quality. There are great examples at the larger museums (e.g. the British museum, V&A and the Royal Armouries) but elsewhere the quality, and sometimes the condition of the blades, is patchy.

 

 

[robinalexander]

3 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

You are lucky to only have 37% tax rate at higher incomes, we have about that for an "average" income.

Plus 10% GST (Goods and Services Tax) on most things we buy (groceries & consumeables, everything almost) and, all services we engage (plumbers, mechanics etc)

 

Plus more than 40 cents tax on every litre of fuel we buy

 

Plus $40 tax out of a 25 pack of cigarettes which cost $50 dollars in total (I don't smoke)

 

Plus Payroll Tax....Plus Capital Gains Tax.... Plus Sales Tax ....plus ...plus....😒

 

I'm just grad I live in 'the lucky country' 

🤥

 

[paulb]

Fascinating as the discussion of variations of national tax burdens are I think as a courtesy to the OP we might return to the subject intended.

Kirril in answer to your question re members with more than 1 juyo sword in their collections I honestly don't know but think there are many more than you might think

[Brian]

You guys are forgetting that Darcy knew of enough top top top level swords in the USA to plan the entire Gokkaden series of his books, and had pics of many swords already from the USA and Canada.
People like Ted and others will tell you there are plenty of Jubi level swords in the USA, the owners just don't discuss them on the internet.

[David Flynn]

Swords don't need to be Juyo to be Museum quality.   Even some Gendai Smiths are in Museums

[Rivkin]

 

American jubi... How many strange things are in this phrase.

American market is considered by many as sort of backup... If you need cash there are couple of high profile dealers who will offer you some right away.

No, I don't think its actively considered as a destination for really high end blades, and the direction of quite a few recent years' discoveries within America also show that.

Its pretty similar situation with other collectibles.

American moneyed classes... younger versions of George Soros. Or Jack Dorsey.

There are Exceptions like Larry Ellison, but they are rare.

Past twenty years everyone on the high end collectible front lived of UAE, Russia, China and a few collectors here and there in up-and-coming nations.

Paintings, sculpture, swords... 

 

White world is proud to have become apathetic and apologetic.

[PNSSHOGUN]

"Musuem quality" sounds like pure dealer speak, such a broad concept has little place in any sane discussion.  

[Bazza]

21 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

"Musuem quality" sounds like pure dealer speak, such a broad concept has little place in any sane discussion.  

More so if one is aware of the depredations of some museums and their 'conservers'...

 

BaZZa.

[Gakusee]

11 hours ago, Rivkin said:

 

How many participants in this thread own (present tense) two Juyo or more?

At least one that I recognise, perhaps two, not sure about others. 

[george trotter]

50 years ago I owned an Echizen Yasutsugu 3 Gen sword - in Type 98 mounts with mon.

I also owned a Dewa no Kami Hokkyo Minamoto Mitsuhira in bukezukuri mounts.

Both were Juyo smiths. I sold them when I joined my local state museum (to avoid ethics conflict, can't collect AND curate).

Ysutsugu is 3rd on the large pic and Mitsuhira is 4th on the large pic. Here are the tang pics and the oshigata....enjoy (sorry for the lack of quality of my 50+ years old pics).

Regards,

P.S. speaking as a history trained ex-museum staffer, I can say that "museum quality" is a bit confusing as an I,D. terminology.

It is valid if the museum is dedicated to ONLY the best quality items in a narrow dedicated sphere of objects (e.g. oil paintings of Queen Victoria).

It does not apply to a general history museum as they collect historically related objects...whether they be top quality or low quality...as long as they are relevant to the history of that state/town/subject (e.g. history of cars).

[Baba Yaga]

5 hours ago, Rivkin said:

White world is proud to have become apathetic and apologetic.

 

11 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

You are lucky to only have 37% tax rate at higher incomes, we have about that for an "average" income.

 

Do you really assume me and my elk are apathetic and apologetic? You're playing in the wrong sand box LOL.

 

PNSSHOGUN We have this adjusted income, after expenses. Our Net-Net is taxed that high.  One thing for sure in America, death and tax.

 

I really would like the definition of ""museum quality"? Is that the "stuff" which is sold at the back door???  

[paulb]

Re death and taxes, I think that's two  things unless you regard one as the inevitable consequence of the other

[Gakusee]

13 minutes ago, Baba Yaga said:

 

 

Do you really assume me and my elk are apathetic and apologetic? You're playing in the wrong sand box LOL.

 

PNSSHOGUN We have this adjusted income, after expenses. Our Net-Net is taxed that high.  One thing for sure in America, death and tax.

 

I really would like the definition of ""museum quality"? Is that the "stuff" which is sold at the back door???  

People often assume that 'museum quality' encompasses all of: 1) rare items 2) high-end items as in made by top or famous smiths 3) well-preserved items 4) with high-quality workmanship and 5) sometimes (not always) with rich history  or provenance.

Well, most museums might have one or two that meet all these criteria but unless the museum specialises in swords (eg the NBTHK museum) or samurai arts or is a daimyo/samurai family museum (eg Tokugawa etc) or is a shrine, when it comes to swords it is more likely the vast majority of their items do not meet all criteria. 

 

For instance, in the UK, the V&A has probably two-three swords I would put in that category, the BM probably 10-15 (out of 400-500), Leeds Armouries probably 3-5 and so on. 

So, I know (non-Japanese) collectors whose entire collections meet at least 4 out of the 5 criteria above, hence better than your average 'museum quality'. 

 

And that is fine and understandable as most museums, as George pertinently described, might wish just a sample to represent a particular culture, ethnic group or historical period. 

[Baba Yaga]

7 hours ago, paulb said:

Fascinating as the discussion of variations of national tax burdens are I think as a courtesy to the OP we might return to the subject intended.

Kirril in answer to your question re members with more than 1 juyo sword in their collections I honestly don't know but think there are many more than you might think

Coin collecting and sports cards are a prolific hobby, Nihonto is as obscure as it gets. Ask 100,000 people if they've ever heard of the words. Nihonto,  meteor collecting, or dinosaur bones. There is your Juyo answer. A  niche of a niche of a niche. 

[Baba Yaga]

4 minutes ago, Gakusee said:

For instance, in the UK, the V&A has probably two-three swords I would put in that category, the BM probably 10-15 (out of 400-500), Leeds Armouries probably 3-5 and so on. 

 

Now, those are numbers and a definition I can believe.  

[Baba Yaga]

12 minutes ago, paulb said:

Re death and taxes, I think that's two  things unless you regard one as the inevitable consequence of the other

It's an old American saying, I'm dead and my kid gets taxed to death unless I have a good probate attorney. Lets say I have 2 or more Juyo blades and I pass. Because my estate is so large and assessor comes in and says, my collection is worth $150K. That's a taxable number. I made the mistake of listing my Art on a bank note once along with other assets. 

[Franco D]

10 hours ago, Brian said:

You guys are forgetting that Darcy knew of enough top top top level swords in the USA to plan the entire Gokkaden series of his books, and had pics of many swords already from the USA and Canada.
People like Ted and others will tell you there are plenty of Jubi level swords in the USA, the owners just don't discuss them on the internet.

 

One of our late friend Arnold Frenzel's criteria for an excellent sword show was the presence of a Meibutsu room, where attendees would have the opportunity to view in hand a number of truly outstanding nihonto from private collections, including Juyo swords that they would otherwise never get the chance to see. Thanks to people like Bob Benson a number of shows offered a Meibutsu display in the past. 

[Rivkin]

A proper reaction to my Juyo question is "two you say... I wonder why would you choose such an unimpressive number. Guess personal reasons.".

Instead the responses were... There is a good Russian saying "arguments of the poor". I know a guy, who knows a guy who knows a guy, and this guy has o-ho-ho, while I pay huuge taxes.

 

There is a reason why in native tongue most Japanese nihonto-nin are (rightly) dismissive of American community. Dozens of journals - "research periodicals" and not a single article out of all of them ever cited in Japan.... for a good reason. No one ever said "we believed Goto Bufu and Goto Tufu to be one and the same, but then there was this publication in America which made good arguments....".

Same goes for collections.

They feared (rightly) Bigelow. He was a supporter of what we might dismiss as hamamono, but it also served as foundation of modern japanesque aesthetic, evident everywhere from medals to interior design. But at the same time many of his Japanese contacts left us memories touched by the horror they felt while talking to him - how much this man with this much knowledge can take out of Japan if he is willing?

His collection in MFA is near the only one outside of Japan which is repeatedly referenced in texts as an example of such and such signature or excellent example of early work. Unfortunately, thanks in part to NBTHK we can't see it. That's kind of Japanese way of doing things - if you have an access to information its a precious well you need to block on all sides and preserve for your son. Its a dealer rather than academic mentality. Back on topic, by comparison British Museums are, well.... BM's greatness is akin to one British Marshall (forgot his name sorry)'s Masamune.

They respected (rightly) Compton.

The most educated Japanese even know Stone.

 

But when they talk in Japanese of modern American collectors, there is little respect. If you are not satisfied with the way things are - well, write an original, citable article. Chances are its still going to be dismissed/unknown in Japan, but it will be something. Surely, Markus Sesko wrote some, Bob Haynes did, but we can do more.

Collect a great blade, if only one.

"Juyo level smiths" and "American Jubi" are both interesting things, but from a bit different genre.

 

[Gakusee]

2 hours ago, Rivkin said:

A proper reaction to my Juyo question is "two you say... I wonder why would you choose such an unimpressive number. Guess personal reasons.".

Instead the responses were... There is a good Russian saying "arguments of the poor". I know a guy, who knows a guy who knows a guy, and this guy has o-ho-ho, while I pay huuge taxes.

 

There is a reason why in native tongue most Japanese nihonto-nin are (rightly) dismissive of American community. Dozens of journals - "research periodicals" and not a single article out of all of them ever cited in Japan.... for a good reason. No one ever said "we believed Goto Bufu and Goto Tufu to be one and the same, but then there was this publication in America which made good arguments....".

Same goes for collections.

They feared (rightly) Bigelow. He was a supporter of what we might dismiss as hamamono, but it also served as foundation of modern japanesque aesthetic, evident everywhere from medals to interior design. But at the same time many of his Japanese contacts left us memories touched by the horror they felt while talking to him - how much this man with this much knowledge can take out of Japan if he is willing?

His collection in MFA is near the only one outside of Japan which is repeatedly referenced in texts as an example of such and such signature or excellent example of early work. Unfortunately, thanks in part to NBTHK we can't see it. That's kind of Japanese way of doing things - if you have an access to information its a precious well you need to block on all sides and preserve for your son. Its a dealer rather than academic mentality. Back on topic, by comparison British Museums are, well.... BM's greatness is akin to one British Marshall (forgot his name sorry)'s Masamune.

They respected (rightly) Compton.

The most educated Japanese even know Stone.

 

But when they talk in Japanese of modern American collectors, there is little respect. If you are not satisfied with the way things are - well, write an original, citable article. Chances are its still going to be dismissed/unknown in Japan, but it will be something. Surely, Markus Sesko wrote some, Bob Haynes did, but we can do more.

Collect a great blade, if only one.

"Juyo level smiths" and "American Jubi" are both interesting things, but from a bit different genre.

 

Kirill, it seems to me this is is starting to become somewhat personal, I am afraid. Your oblique references to what I have talked about (eg, the British Museum, “someone knows someone”, Darcy’s  methodology of defining greatness and your picking holes in it) are very clear. Your passive-aggressive criticisms might impress certain people who are perhaps at the outset of their journey. Let me please address your statements. I do not wish to digress or pick up an argument but you are clearly provoking here….
 

Firstly, your dissection of Darcy’s blogs.  The man at least devised a method and theory. Furthermore, it is a method, not an axiom. There are assumptions and some shortcuts but it is an acceptable approach. What is your counter-proposal? It is easy to criticise from afar. Also, as you are fascinated with Soshu, I understand why it is difficult to accept that Bizen can be as good or greater….Signed you say, so that eliminates Soshu (sigh) and means it is Bizen at the front (sigh, sigh). 

 

Next, many on this forum do not want to talk publicly about their collections and discuss what they own. Various reasons: why would they indicate their wealth and economic capacity? Why should they invite unwanted attention, eg from forumites, people who know them or burglars?
 

American collections: what is your issue with them? You need to realise that the great collections of the past (rich daddy’s boy Bigelow, great doctor and pharmaceutical innovator Compton, etc) were built when Japan was an impoverished third-world country far behind the developed Europe or US, so the wealth of the West could amass Japanese treasures for peanuts. Furthermore, the great beneficiary of, let us kindly call it, “expatriating” of Nihonto was of course the occupying US army and the US. However, in the 1950s-1980s Japan advanced so much economically that their country, their collectors, their purchasing power aggrandised to such an extent that they started coming over to the West and acquiring their treasures back. They became a superpower second only to the US back then (still currently their economy is the third largest in the world) having risen from the poverty and destitution of WW2. So, whether coming to auctions (remember Tsuruta coming over for an auction and buying ‘that’ Kiyomaro?) or travelling around the USA, sleeping in motels or people’s sitting-room couches and unearthing blades (Kurokawa), they did come over and repatriated a lot of what was rightfully theirs. 

Nowadays, there are still great Nihonto collections in the US. The issue is, as far as I am aware, it is not billionaires in the US who collect Japanese swords, and the bigger collectors in the US definitely don’t have the obsession or financial means of the three Japanese billionaires with the largest Japanese swords collections in their own home country. 
Another fact: apart from economic disparities between when the great American collections were built vs poor Japan, these collections were also mostly built before the NBTHK and NTHK were established or flourished. These and other Japanese organisations have improved education and expanded knowledge domestically (hence you don’t have extensive theses or literary contributions from Europe that can be ground-breaking or beat the Japanese literature) and promoted the appreciations and ownership at home too. 
 

British Museum: the main benefactor was financier Robert Wylie Lloyd, while field marshal Festing was a high-level collector as was Sir Frank Bowden…. Anyway.As I have said, they have 400-500 Japanese swords and perhaps I was a bit harsh when I said 10-15 of “museum top quality” as only the KoAoe, KoBizen and Fukuoka Ichimonji of Juyo standard (and often with daimyo sayagaki) are at least 10. Then, you have some decent Shinto, the Shintogo tanto (which is Juyo). I can’t remember the Muromachi and Shinto names in the collection. So, the total of great blades is probably closer to 20. 

There is no Masamune in the BM, it is in the V&A. It is indeed a high-level Soshu blade, which could be at least a Yukimitsu. Has some chance at Masamune.  It has a kinzogan by the 12th Honami head Kojo (with attribution to Masamune), whose attributions are usually upheld by the NBTHK. 
 

I do not even wish to go into the subject of how many Juyo swords the members own. There are $15k-$20k Juyo swords and $150k-$250k Juyo swords. So, the person who bought the $250k Masamune (unlikely at this price) or Sadamune or Tomonari et al in your books perhaps runs behind the person who bought a few Naoe Shizu, some Yamato Senjuin, some Tadayoshi, but has 15 Juyo? There are Hozon graded swords, or even unpapered (but sort of “hidden” or secret) within Japanese collections which are more valuable (economically, historically, etc) than even Juyo or TJ swords.  But I agree on one point with you - the Japanese love secrecy and sometimes prefer their swords not to be published in some Juyo Zufu that also includes the name of the owner or submitter. 
 

 

 

[Ooitame]

One thing I consider is consistency in quality e.g. Masamune vs Norishigie. So Masamune would not be in my top 10. Also is style variety e.g. Bungo while not consistent in quality, they were able to master many styles. I have purchased only two Nihonto, the stated above and an amazing showta Nagamitsu; before the polish and more so after as it looks Bizen in hada activity, sughata, and hamon activity. I only wanted a diasho and have achieved my goals. Both are great swords in my personal opinion after handling many blades. I believe many collectors prefer the older well known names, but greatness can be overlooked or unappreciated if older is the best mentality. To each their own but greatness spans and the top ten is hard to quantify given the vast time span of Nihonto making. As an example, I can not remember his name, but a (shin?)shinto smith made excellent Soshu works/utushi. 

 

Maybe a top ten by nengo would be better.

[David Flynn]

The old adage, Buy the sword, not the name.

[Rivkin]

5 hours ago, Gakusee said:

Firstly, your dissection of Darcy’s blogs.  The man at least devised a method and theory. Furthermore, it is a method, not an axiom. There are assumptions and some shortcuts but it is an acceptable approach. What is your counter-proposal? It is easy to criticise from afar. Also, as you are fascinated with Soshu, I understand why it is difficult to accept that Bizen can be as good or greater….Signed you say, so that eliminates Soshu (sigh) and means it is Bizen at the front (sigh, sigh). 

 

For individual names across all schools, there is Fujishiro. Not much can be added to his list of sai-jo-saku, with or without "pass ratio" - even if pass ratio is low, it would be a problem of the method not of the name. It also does not work with most lesser names, for the reasons given. If one invents a system which cacluates precise numerical valuation to greatest painters, it will hit the same kind of issues and fail just as much. His method is however useful in detecting schools which are not that well known but at the same time have good chances at papering high. In this sense its a clever technique and shows unexpected strength of schools like Unshu. 

Does it affect a personal list of "10 best"? No relation.

 

After Compton and Bigelow, no, there are no great collectors in the US. No, they are not in hiding - its often clear who bids what on highest end blades. Small world.

The reasons are not due to economy, they are purely social. I've dated enough women to understand the underlying issue.

Yes, for many Japanese American nihonto community is at the level "naughty children". 

Yes, there are (some) good blades in America. This does not indicate the level of its most important collectors. I am happy with what (very little) I have, and don't pretend to have a standing anywhere close to the grand level. I think its an honest response that would work for most people in this thread. No need to stretch it into something its not.

The quality of blades in museums - great fittings yes, great blades outside of Japan and MFA - hm... Yes, a typical museum collection kind of reminds one of what Marshall Festig used to have. Yes, a few good ones.

[Jacques D.]

My last intervention on this subject. Being a collector does not mean being an expert, I know some very high level collectors (those are not on the web) who have little or very little real knowledge. On the other hand, a dealer has a commercial interest in passing himself off as an expert, especially those who only sell on the net. Finally, I have never seen a Japanese expert (and I know a few) establish a top 10 of swordsmiths.  Fujishiro lists 55 koto smiths saijo saku, for him they all have the same level.