Top 10 Swordsmiths In Japanese History

[Nihontocollector752]

@Peter Bleed unfortunately no one on the NMB is able to come close to what are regarded as the BEST and definately there are collections that represent both diversity and quality and again, none of those collectors are on the NMB (some think so, but no) 

 

@Jacques D. the very title itself establishes a public opinion you Jacques ass

[paulb]

I think there are more than 3000 users on the nmb so making a sweeping statement regarding the lack of quality within collections is foolhardy to say the least. I am aware of a number of collectors here who include highest quality works

[Baba Yaga]

7 minutes ago, paulb said:

I think there are more than 3000 users on the nmb so making a sweeping statement regarding the lack of quality within collections is foolhardy to say the least. I am aware of a number of collectors here who include highest quality works

I'm not sure that statement is wrong when considering "continents". America is probably one of the largest for Nihonto.   

[Nihontocollector752]

@paulb no one here owns museum quality pieces such as those found in Japan itself, that is all i meant 🙏

[paulb]

Sorry but you are wrong

[Nihontocollector752]

@paulb just my opinion, no argument intended

[Baba Yaga]

What I can say, people with museum quality pieces of anything are smart enough not to publicize it on any forum. 

 

[paulb]

No nor me

[Jean]

Jimmy,

 

you are wrong. There are people who own Museum quality blades and who advertize it on NMB. Among them, late Darcy.

 

Edit to add that the best articles are far from being in Museum but often in private collections😁

[Rivkin]

4 hours ago, Nihontocollector752 said:

@paulb no one here owns museum quality pieces such as those found in Japan itself, that is all i meant 🙏

 

I don't know if "museum quality" defines it... There are quite a few people owning pieces from the disbanded what it was called sword fittings museum or something. There are quite a few with pieces which were exhibited at Bizen museum or NBTHK, and some were exhibited at TNM. Any TJ can be said to be "the best of the best", its a tiny sliver which is unexportable and unownable outside of Japan. American collections today are lacking, that's probably an accurate statement, but individual pieces owned can still be the best in their grade.

 

[Rivkin]

6 hours ago, Peter Bleed said:

This ENTIRE thread is a reflection of Japanese social and intellectual patterns.

In Japan social, ASSESSMENT of those things is as important as the things. That means that collectors have to follow socially accepted assessment. Becoming an expert involved learning what people THINK, oh,... and also being able to identify and assess the thing. Personal taste is always discounted in Japan. What YOU like is always less significant that what others judge to to be "good."

Discussing topics like the top 10 etc is all right. But for us as individuals, we should always aim at getting the BEST possible swords.

Practically, there are TWO approaches to collecting, 1) diversity OR 2) quality.

We can either try to acquire the RANGE (historical, geographic etc. all the generations, and "schools") that is out there. OR we can acquire pieces that are the best of their types. Few of us can get any of the smiths beings discussed in this thread. But from an economic point of view, getting the BEST of whatever it is we are interested in, is the way to go. Learn your own "top 10" and aim at it...

P

 

I don't know and my experience with Japanese collectors is very limited, but there are certainly some with advanced and very specialized interests, including those outside the first tier names if only because some collect items from their home province or city. There are Juyo sessions where you get a flood of blades from the same school, and they came from one person.

I think every collector with substantial experience and investment begins to specialize, even if he does not have such goal and buys at random, you just find the same topic over and over in his stuff. I always argued against the advice to specialize for nihonto since its not that easy nor as required as with coins or stamps, but there tends to be at least a certain "look" a person goes after. 

 

[Brian]

To think that members don't own some of the highest quality works is amusing.
I personally know of collectors here owning stuff at the very top levels, and even in fittings we have members owning names like Natsuo etc
I think you would be very wrong to assume that.

[PNSSHOGUN]

We all know that if we haven't seen something before it can't possibly exist, right?

[Nihontocollector752]

1 hour ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

We all know that if we haven't seen something before it can't possibly exist, right?

Absolutely, and few here have seen what museums and private museums in Japan have in their collections so on the NMB you have to take the members at their word. 

[WillFalstaff]

Sorry guys for staying mum for a few days, I was knocked out by a mystery virus. It wasn't the famous one we've all come to hate. 

 

I think my question is highlighting a subject that seems to be fairly important to decipher. There seems to be two world views on this subject: 

 

1. There can be rankings for smiths and the quality of their work by noted groups of experts (NBTHK, NTHK, etc.)

2. These rankings are not often shared on a personal level by collectors. 

 

Both of these can be correct, but should be separated. I think I'll update my posting to reflect this. 

 

So, let's put personal taste to the side and look at this from a dispassionate objective view. Here's an analogy: A literary editor receives two manuscripts. He reads both, and from the first few pages he can already tell that one is from a sophomore in High School, the other is from a seasoned writer with published works under her belt. 

 

Taking this to the realm of swords, a person who has been involved with judging swords can tell an inferior smith (possibly an apprentice) from a smith that has figured out how to create blades that exhibit qualities that make a blade better than some other ones. 

 

In this way, I think smiths can be compared to another, and one can be agreed upon by a group of judges one is better than another one. I think this is the point of shinsa, other than trying to identify mumei blades. 

 

I think the eye of the beholder belongs to the appreciator of the art. I do also believe smiths themselves tended to (and still do) rank their own works, whether they put their mei on the blade or let it go off to the polishing land as mumei is an example.

 

I think @Peter Bleed brought up a good point about putting aside personal taste when judging quality.   

[Baba Yaga]

15 hours ago, Rivkin said:

 

American collections today are lacking, that's probably an accurate statement, but individual pieces owned can still be the best in their grade.

 

 

I remember in early 2000's the NCJSC in America had 200 members and that was from collectors from all over, some internationally. If America has fizzled out with it's great GDP the hobby is more obscure then I thought. Many of the old guard have passed and collected what I define as very high quality. What defines museum quality and the finest swords, I regress.   

[Nihontocollector752]

26 minutes ago, WillFalstaff said:

Sorry guys for staying mum for a few days, I was knocked out by a mystery virus. It wasn't the famous one we've all come to hate. 

 

I think my question is highlighting a subject that seems to be fairly important to decipher. There seems to be two world views on this subject: 

 

1. There can be rankings for smiths and the quality of their work by noted groups of experts (NBTHK, NTHK, etc.)

2. These rankings are not often shared on a personal level by collectors. 

 

Both of these can be correct, but should be separated. I think I'll update my posting to reflect this. 

 

So, let's put personal taste to the side and look at this from a dispassionate objective view. Here's an analogy: A literary editor receives two manuscripts. He reads both, and from the first few pages he can already tell that one is from a sophomore in High School, the other is from a seasoned writer with published works under her belt. 

 

Taking this to the realm of swords, a person who has been involved with judging swords can tell an inferior smith (possibly an apprentice) from a smith that has figured out how to create blades that exhibit qualities that make a blade better than some other ones. 

 

In this way, I think smiths can be compared to another, and one can be agreed upon by a group of judges one is better than another one. I think this is the point of shinsa, other than trying to identify mumei blades. 

 

I think the eye of the beholder belongs to the appreciator of the art. I do also believe smiths themselves tended to (and still do) rank their own works, whether they put their mei on the blade or let it go off to the polishing land as mumei is an example.

 

I think @Peter Bleed brought up a good point about putting aside personal taste when judging quality.   

This is not really applicable because a single smith had a peak in their career that defines them for greatness. Kiyomaro has excellent pieces and he has very, very bad pieces. Aoe has no middle ground there are either very good Aoe or very bad Aoe. Soshu is largely mumei so Amazing Soshu in certain styles gets placed to Shizu and incredible goes to Shizu...

 

So where to go from here?

[paulb]

Defining "Quality" in something defined as and art object without taking in to account aesthetic appeal is not possible. The NBTHK compare blades against the standard for that tradition or school and define the quality in relation to that norm. They do not for example compare a top Soshu blade with a top Bizen blade in terms of which is better quality. To reach a high level of paper the blades must be very well made in excellent condition and demonstrate all the features associated with that smith or school.

This is not new. Aesthetics have always played a major part in defining which swords were best. Soshu blades only came to prominence when it was noted that Hideyoshi liked them and the appraisers who worked for him started ranking them at the top of the league. At other times Yamashiro Awataguchi and Fukuoka Ichimonji have topped the table. Again this wasn't to do with functionality or how well made they were (they could all cut and were all well made) it was which one appealed the most to the market of the day.

I believe Awataguchi  blades are amongst the best ever made. The quality of their forging the superior raw material that was available to them resulted as something that is near perfection (To me). Others would regard them as boring and dull. This has nothing to do with quality.

Based on what we read in various texts The top 

3 best Tanto makers were Awataguchi Yoshimitsu, Shintogo Kunimitsu and Masamune.

Top best long swords were made by Go-Yoshihiro Ko-Aoe Tsunetsugu and Masamune.

Other names that would be in the top 10 would include Sanjo Munechika Yasatsuna Ko-Bizen Tomonari.

But for all of these the reputation is based to some extent on how they look and whether that appealed to the taste of the day.

[Nihontocollector752]

Awataguchi didn't make my list because i simply have little experience with them but i have seen them in Japan in museums and smiths like Hisakuni are generally fought over by top collections,  my list was also based around signed examples and i think Awataguchi has many so confirmation on quality by a certain smith is possible, less so with Soshu. Awataguchi though is so perfect it's boring because you see it and you know, its just immediately identifiable. 

 

Personally i think Bizen Kagemitsu made Tanto as perfect as Awataguchi Yoshimitsu but now we are comparing Bizen and Yamashiro Tanto so @paulb why are they great in your opinion, and you must have an opinion on both regardless of what you've seen because they are known greats. 

 

*edit Bizen Kagemitsu

[Baba Yaga]

For there "time" IMO Awataguchi  blades were the best made, but that was at the "time".

The Western market loves the flamboyancy of the Shinto - Shinshinto hamon times.  

[paulb]

Jimmy,

George Cameron Stone in his glossary or arms and armour published in the early 1900s said "The Japanese sword is the nearest thing to perfection made by human hand" that's how I fell about the Awataguchi blades I have seen (which like almost everyone else is not very many) The blade has  beautifully uniform hada covered in bright ji-nie and other activity. How they managed to create such a perfect result with a hammer and anvil I cannot even guess. SO in summary they are beautifully made, the forging is not only faultless but incredibly beautiful and the hardening compliments and exemplifies what is happening in the hada

You are right Kagemitsu also made beautiful tanto and he would be high in my personal list too. Unfortunately he is surrounding by a mass of other great Bizen talent which perhaps has made him shine a little less than he might otherwise have done 

[Gakusee]

Oh, well, I miss Darcy and his rigorous and data-driven approach ..... https://blog.yuhindo.com/pass-factor/#more-439

https://blog.yuhindo.com/2017/09/

[WillFalstaff]

Interesting.

I'm having a hard time processing how blades from different schools can't be compared to find the better one. Sounds like everything in the universe is quantifiable, except nihonto. 

I guess defining characteristics that make one blade superior over another is needed here. 

I keep thinking back to a samurai in the Muromachi period and how he'd rank swords. I think he'd start with "Can this take the stress of battle and not snap? How long can it hold it's edge? Can I look at it at home and see the spirit inside?"

 

2 hours ago, Nihontocollector752 said:

Kiyomaro has excellent pieces and he has very, very bad pieces. Aoe has no middle ground there are either very good Aoe or very bad Aoe. Soshu is largely mumei so Amazing Soshu in certain styles gets placed to Shizu and incredible goes to Shizu...

 

So where to go from here?

 

@Nihontocollector752 So clearly there is a ranking. Bad and good. Amazing to Incredible. That's a start. What makes the blade bad? What makes the blade good? I think the missing ingredient here is consensus.

 

I also think maybe some dogmatism slips in and rears it's ugly head when we need to start to "kill our darlings".  

[WillFalstaff]

5 minutes ago, Gakusee said:

Oh, well, I miss Darcy and his rigorous and data-driven approach ..... https://blog.yuhindo.com/pass-factor/#more-439

https://blog.yuhindo.com/2017/09/

 

Damn! You beat me to it!

[Gakusee]

46 minutes ago, WillFalstaff said:

 

Damn! You beat me to it!

Worthwhile reading and re-reading a few times. Every now and then I re-read his blog posts..... He touched greatness as far as nihonto are concerned and was very, very highly regarded by Tanobe sensei himself, great dealers/collectors such as Kurokawa san, Takahashi san, Saito san, Iida san, even Sawaguchi himself etc. Few of us on this board were lucky to be friends with him and also be fortunate enough to be custodians of some of the blades that he found.....

[Rivkin]

Ranking by TJ numbers is a popular dealer thing. Simple, intuitive...

First you write "this is the greatest smith - he has 50 TJ", the next day "this smith is so rare and precious, there is only one known TJ".

Then you praise one Ichimonji guy for 10 TJ, forgetting the only reason he has the whole ten because unlike everyone else he signed and dated - a lot.

Then one day Awataguchi Kuniyoshi Juyo makes TJ as Awataguchi. My goodness, Kuniyoshi's pass factor just went to hell! All these years, we must have overvalued this smith, but now the math has finally spoken its truth.

And do not forget to spread nasty rumors about anyone commenting like Honma's, Sato's and post-Sato Juyo and even TJ are well, a bit different bag of things. I was told in religious school that doubt is number one tool of Mr. Satan. Nihonto dealers second that.

 

 

[Rivkin]

8 hours ago, Baba Yaga said:

 

I remember in early 2000's the NCJSC in America had 200 members and that was from collectors from all over, some internationally. If America has fizzled out with it's great GDP the hobby is more obscure then I thought. Many of the old guard have passed and collected what I define as very high quality. What defines museum quality and the finest swords, I regress.   

 

How many participants in this thread own (present tense) two Juyo or more?

[Jean]

I 

[Rivkin]

Darcy's is admittedly a clever approach which is supposed to address one of the main problems of "value by TJ counts", which is different smiths have very different number of blades assigned to them. So you normalize the number of TJ with respect to number of Juyos, and this supposedly puts smiths "large" and "small" on equal footing. Clever.

The problems are obvious. You basically disregard everything post-Nambokucho.

And then with Kamakura and Heian blades you have an issue that if its signed the signature itself is a very strong argument for both TJ and definitive attribution. So signed smiths like Bizen Osafune will get a huge boost, unsigned Kamakura smiths will get a downgrade.

And then there are dozens of very high (maybe sky high) quality Awataguchi, Aoe and other smiths who are not represented by a large number of surviving, signed blades.

And everything unsigned will always have the attribution oscillating between generic one to the school and that to the personal name.

You can be a great Awataguchi smith but a natural uncertainty with attributions of your suriage daito (and that's what you made all your life) puts a hard cap on your "pass ratio". The cap which cannot ever be disregarded and which makes your "pass ratio" just "above average".

You can further constraint the "pass ratio" theory to account for only the signed blades - but then the selection becomes so small its irrelevant.

 

[Ooitame]

@Nihontocollector752 I have a zaimei uchigatana Norimitsu that is in great condition and reminds me of Oei. Tanobe san, also calling it an excellent example in a highly specialized sayagaki style. Would that qualify for museum quality or no?