Stampless showato?

[Xander Chia]

I came across a kaigunto on Aoijapan that was stated to be “Showa-to, not forged blade”. However after looking at the images, I noticed that there were no stamps. I then realised that it is illegal to own a showato in Japan. Soon after that I found another showato that lacked a stamp on another site. It was signed “日比野義次” (Hibino Yoshitsugu) which I know to be a seki smith. I always thought gunto without stamps were all traditionally made, would be glad if someone could explain this to me.

 

Here are the links:

https://www.aoijapan.com/katanakaneshige/?_sfm_price=100000+300000

https://www.samuraishokai.jp/sword/22122.html

[Nihonto Chicken]

Personally interested in responses to this inquiry as I have a smith signed gunto with no Seki or Showa stamp that I suspect may be non-tamahagane.  

[WulinRuilong]

Seki or Showa stamp only means the sword passed the Army's examination, nothing more. It has nothing to do with whether the sword is made by traditional way or not.

[David Flynn]

Don't forget, what we call Showato, the Japanese call Gunto.  What we call Gendaito, the Japanese call Showato.

[PNSSHOGUN]

There are unstamped Showato out there, some are original and others have been cynically removed by dealers. The one from samuraishokai looks to have been removed:

[sbf]

I have seen several swords that have had the stamps neatly removed, some of them so well done it took very close examination to see it.

 

Steve

[Bruno]

Since more and more torokusho and even NBTHK Hozon papers (Mantetsu-to) are issued to non-tamahagane swords , the least is we can see them for sale by Japanese dealers. There must be some flexibily in the rule abviously...Times are changing.

 

I dare to add that without stamp and a good keisho polish, it is not so easy to spot a non- tamahagane sword imho.

[Bruce Pennington]

Hi Xander!

 

I have a full discussion of this in the first chapter of Stamps of the Japanese Sword. 

 

Concerning showato in Japan, as I understand the current laws, they allow people to register swords regardless of whether they are traditional or not.  The premise being someone just bought a house and "found" this sword in the attic rafters.  It seems they are being "found" more frequently lately! Ha!  And at the same time, like Bruno pointed out, the culture is beginning to recognize the historical value of them.

 

Stamping - not all swords got inspected, and not all swords got stamped.  In the hundreds of swords examined by Richard Fuller, Mal Cox, and myself, half have no stamps at all, yet many of them were likely non-traditionally made.  To my knowledge, there have been no documents found requiring the stamping of blades of either kind, nor requiring the military to stamp blades.  We do have regulation info showing the inspector stamps of the various arsenals, so this would IMPLY that they were required to do some stamping, but we still do not have proof that the stamping was done simply as an acceptance process or to indicate a blade was non-traditional.

 

The Showa and Seki stamps are still a bit of a mystery.  The only actual written evidence we have comes from the Seki City website, that describes the early years of showato manufacturing.  The high demand for swords caused the industry to really ramp-up rapidly.  There were forges making some really crappy showato, which bothered the dealers.  So, the dealers requested the Seki Cutlery Manufacturers Association to inspect blades for quality.  They complied and acceptable blades were stamped.  The website does not say what the stamp looked like.  It would be easy to say the "Seki" stamp was the one they used, and it may turn out to be true, but I'm bothered by the fact that we don't have any observed Seki stamps prior to 1940, and the majority of them are seen in 1942 - well beyond the surge in sword production created by the Army's demands of the China incursion of the mid-late '30s.  While, in fact, we see the "Showa" stamp as early as 1935, peaking in 1940 and tapering off as the "Seki" stamp takes over.  My personal opinion is that the Assoc. used them both, starting with the Showa stamp and replacing it with the Seki stamp, reasons unknown.  Ohmura, in researching Seki production and stamping, found a document stating half the swords were not stamped because "traditional swords were not part of that tally".

 

Once the Army assumed control of blade production, around 1942, stamping changed to predominantly area/arsenal stamps, but like I said, we have no documented reasons for the stamping practice.  I believe, now, that they were simply acceptance stamps.  Gendaito made for the military were often RJT and received the star, or Yasukuni/Minatagawa blades; or were sold privately.  Were there some gendaito that received other stamps?  There are one or two rare examples of Showa stamped blades that were papered, but I'm not aware of any others.

 

Ah. So I got to rambling!  There were many showato made before the stamping process was in full swing.  I believe many of the non-dated blades were made early in the war, say 1935-1940, and never went through an inspection process involving stamps.

[Brian]

Mostly correct, however no....non-traditionally made swords are not supposed to be registered. They are supposed to be destroyed.
And some stamps prove non-traditional. But lack of stamps does NOT make it a Gendaito. In fact most unstamped swords are likely mass produced when made during the war.
Yes, people with "contacts" or favours get swords registered that shouldn't be. That happens .

[Xander Chia]

Thanks for all the replies! Looks like what I thought to be a simple concept turns out to be ambiguous and complicated once again.

[IJASWORDS]

Bruce, here is one of mine to ponder. RJT smith KANETOSHI with just about every acceptance and arsenal stamp, including a star stamp miss hit 3 times! 

It is 65cm long, made in 1941, and is extremely well made, including what looks like a Juka-Choji hamon. The stamps are on both sides, and 3 on the mune. Matching assembly numbers on 

the fittings. It is in original WW2 polish, but every feature is visible.  

[PNSSHOGUN]

To add to the list rule breakers is the metal Saya, which almost invariably contain Showato in RS mounts.

[Paz]

There a few blades which go on sale at Aoi art that are showato , and quite cheap at under 2k. So if these swords are illegal to have in Japan how does Tsuruta san get these papered or sent for deregister to export ? Bit confused. 

 

Also I get the feeling that showato swords aren't really at the top of people's collection want lists. I've been put off by them and just won't buy anything from that period. 

 

Regards 

[Bruce Pennington]

On 5/8/2022 at 10:41 AM, Brian said:

Mostly correct, however no....non-traditionally made swords are not supposed to be registered.

I thought this topic came up somewhere else recently and the answer was something to do with registering for international sale.  Is that more in the ball-park?

[Nihonto Chicken]

7 hours ago, Paz said:

Also I get the feeling that showato swords aren't really at the top of people's collection want lists. I've been put off by them and just won't buy anything from that period. 

 

Probably true for the most part on behalf of nihonto true believers, but then there is the military collectible crowd that is not under the magnetic spell of hamon and hada.  Even serial numbered Japanese NCO swords bring serious coin nowadays.  Wish I still had the 90% and 98% examples I sold off many years ago for about one Benjamin each.  

[Bruce Pennington]

17 hours ago, Paz said:

Also I get the feeling that showato swords aren't really at the top of people's collection want lists. I've been put off by them and just won't buy anything from that period. 

Ha! Rick beat me to this, but @Paz - you do realize you're posting this on the "MILITARY Swords of Japan" forum right?    Sure, gunto don't sell for as much as a really fine, old nihonto, but honestly - that just means I can buy 4 gunto that I really like for the price of one nihonto!  Love it!

 

Seriously, 'showato swords' are the only thing on my list, ok, I do have a nihonto in gunto fittings, but that's a one-off.  Oops, I have a gendaito in RS fittings too.  But you know what I mean.

[Paz]

Understood @Bruce Pennington each to their own. 

 

I guess everyone has their own preferences and joys in collecting. 

 

Regards