Sotheby's The Samurai Arms and Armour Auction.

[Jon Masutatsu]

https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2022/the-samurai-Japanese-arms-and-armour?lotFilter=AllLots

[Jussi Ekholm]

How do you feel about price estimates in this auction Jon?

[Luc T]

Nice sashimono and wakidate.   They look a bit similar though.   Coincidence?

[Jon Masutatsu]

Yes, indeed.  But there are very nice and 

rare lot's available. 

[Luc T]

 The level is a bit low for Sotheby's if you ask me.  Former auctions were better, with more realistic estimates.

This is rather Bonhams’ level.

[uwe]

The “price tags” on many of the armors and armor related items are...let me say…”quite optimistic”. Yes Jon, some nice pieces amongst the lots, but as usual, buyer beware!!!

[WulinRuilong]

Osafune Morishige？？ I think this is Osafune Sukesada

[Bugyotsuji]

Where can you see the Mei, Ruilong?

(Surely Sukesada came later on, no?)

[WulinRuilong]

41 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Where can you see the Mei, Ruilong?

(Surely Sukesada came later on, no?)

The mei looks like Sukesada祐定. It seems not Morishige（but it also looke like Motoshige元重）. The year looks like Daiei大永

Another point, they believe this sword is Osafune Morishige dated Shocho正长. But there is no smith named Osafune Morishige(or Motoshige) active in Shocho era.

[Bugyotsuji]

Sorry, with the quality of photos above I cannot see a Mei anywhere.

[WulinRuilong]

Just now, Bugyotsuji said:

Sorry, with the quality of photos above I cannot see a Mei anywhere.

So how could they see it is Morishige?

[Bugyotsuji]

Just now, WulinRuilong said:

So how could they see it is Morishige?

Huh? What are you looking at？

[Bugyotsuji]

A friend has kindly sent me the link at last! Now I can see what we are discussing!!!

[Munetsugu]

Fully agree the gold bits not only are coincidently all very similar but also look new/modern to my eyes.. 

[Gakusee]

Ok, it is easy to criticise….. Some of these have been restored, some have had bits and pieces added to them (just the way we add a new tsuba or menuki, I know armour collectors swap maedate and wakidate ).

 

Could we balance this thread a bit by commenting on what’s good and interesting? It will be educational. 

[mas4t0]

4 hours ago, Gakusee said:

Ok, it is easy to criticise….. Some of these have been restored, some have had bits and pieces added to them (just the way we add a new tsuba or menuki, I know armour collectors swap maedate and wakidate ).

 

Could we balance this thread a bit by commenting on what’s good and interesting? It will be educational. 

 

+1

 

I'd very much appreciate some more thoughts and opinions on these lots.

I've only been studying Japanese armour for a few months, so I won't muddy the waters with my twaddle.

[Gakusee]

For example, what do the more knowledgeable people think about the two Juyo armours there? Some of the kawari kabuto also look quite nice (I have a soft spot for these fancy, not particularly practical creations) and some items are clearly ambitiously priced. 

I am aware some of these are dealer stock and we are also not supposed to comment too freely on items for sale. But if people are impressed with some items, it will be good to know what/why, etc, if allowed :).

 

We are going to view some of these items this Saturday and given the volume, it will be unlikely we can cover even a fraction of them.

[GN174]

There are some wonderful items and the number of items allow for good comparisons of different smiths and styles across kabuto, mask and armours. The Wakisaka nimai-do gusoku is very interesting (the last photo above with the two interlocking circles) I understand there were 19 of these armours of which 7-8 are known, others here might be able to provide more detail. As you rightly say there are a couple of fine Juyo papered armours and a number of fine unpapered armours. The range and quality of wood carved maedate on a number of kabuto's (lots 6,8,10 & 11) is quite high and armours 46 and 52 also have excellent examples. These are harder and harder to find, the same with the flags as these tend to disintegrate over time, and so great to see them on armour.  For me the metal work on the sode and dou of 49 is something I want to look at more closely only as I nearly bought it a while ago unseen for the dou, so I might end up lamenting that decision.  Lot 70 is an interesting mask with hinged ears which i haven't seen before so special. I personally like variegated lacing and honkozane and so lots 46,47, and 53 appeal to me if money was no object. 

 

Lots of items - I am also planning a trip up to view.  

 

 

 

 

[Jussi Ekholm]

I was asking as I am totally clueless about armor. However here are few points on some of the old swords in the auction that got me thinking about armor prices...

 

For example that Yasumitsu wakizashi that has 24,000 - 30,000 GBP estimate was sold at Aoi Auctions late last year. Don't remember the ending price but it started from 1,3M (c. 8,000 GBP) and Tsuruta being a shrewd business man, I don't think he'll give too many free meals as he gives fair prices that make him profit. Here is the link to the actual item through Web Archive: https://web.archive.org/web/20211203182132/https://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashi-bizen-osafune-yasumitsu/

 

Also the Tegai Kanekiyo with 15,000 - 18,000 GBP estimate has been sold by Aoi on few occasions. Here it was first sold by 650K Yen (c. 4,000 GBP): https://www.aoijapan.net/katana-mumeitegai-kanekiyo/ the more recent sale of it is here and price was still the same in 2021: https://web.archive.org/web/20210301101236/https://www.aoijapan.com/katana-mumeitegai-kanekiyo/

 

The Iwato Ichimonji with 50,000 - 70,000 GBP estimate was listed at Aoi for 2,3M Yen (c. 14,000 GBP) in early 2021. Unfortunately this item was removed online and can't be accessed anymore but I have info on it.

 

Now while you can say that items are worth what someone is willing to pay, or you shouldn't look at old prices, etc... To me these are not some super rare gems as I feel they are made out to be by the auction company. They are decent items but with highly inflated price estimates.

[uwe]

Hi Graham,

 

it's very difficult, if not impossible, to assess an age to these adornments (maedate, ushirodate, sashimono.....etc) based on pictures of this quality. However, I agree with you about the Wakisaka armor. Beseides the "1,5" Wakisaka gusoku in my posession, I can roughly trace the numbers you mentioned.

Beyond that I would like to hold back with further comments in public. Not because there is nothing to say, but because the sale is still pending....

[Luc T]

The jujo armors and nkbkhk papered kabuto will be good, I know how they are judged.   Have a look at them, nourish your eyes with good stuff and you will learn.  I am curious to hear your thoughts gentlemen.

Don’t let yourself distract by fantasies and flashy counterparts.   

[Gakusee]

1 hour ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

I was asking as I am totally clueless about armor. However here are few points on some of the old swords in the auction that got me thinking about armor prices...

 

For example that Yasumitsu wakizashi that has 24,000 - 30,000 GBP estimate was sold at Aoi Auctions late last year. Don't remember the ending price but it started from 1,3M (c. 8,000 GBP) and Tsuruta being a shrewd business man, I don't think he'll give too many free meals as he gives fair prices that make him profit. Here is the link to the actual item through Web Archive: https://web.archive.org/web/20211203182132/https://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashi-bizen-osafune-yasumitsu/

 

Also the Tegai Kanekiyo with 15,000 - 18,000 GBP estimate has been sold by Aoi on few occasions. Here it was first sold by 650K Yen (c. 4,000 GBP): https://www.aoijapan.net/katana-mumeitegai-kanekiyo/ the more recent sale of it is here and price was still the same in 2021: https://web.archive.org/web/20210301101236/https://www.aoijapan.com/katana-mumeitegai-kanekiyo/

 

The Iwato Ichimonji with 50,000 - 70,000 GBP estimate was listed at Aoi for 2,3M Yen (c. 14,000 GBP) in early 2021. Unfortunately this item was removed online and can't be accessed anymore but I have info on it.

 

Now while you can say that items are worth what someone is willing to pay, or you shouldn't look at old prices, etc... To me these are not some super rare gems as I feel they are made out to be by the auction company. They are decent items but with highly inflated price estimates.

 

 

Jussi, you are spot on on these comments. Also, there are similar comments on the armour on other (katchu) forums and also what I have privately heard - items bought from other dealers or online for a fraction of the price are appearing here with multiples of the price they were acquired for a year or two ago....

Some of the people putting them in the Sotheby's auction are aiming for very high profits but there are buyers apparently.... Let us see what transpires.

 

4 hours ago, GN174 said:

There are some wonderful items and the number of items allow for good comparisons of different smiths and styles across kabuto, mask and armours. The Wakisaka nimai-do gusoku is very interesting (the last photo above with the two interlocking circles) I understand there were 19 of these armours of which 7-8 are known, others here might be able to provide more detail. As you rightly say there are a couple of fine Juyo papered armours and a number of fine unpapered armours. The range and quality of wood carved maedate on a number of kabuto's (lots 6,8,10 & 11) is quite high and armours 46 and 52 also have excellent examples. These are harder and harder to find, the same with the flags as these tend to disintegrate over time, and so great to see them on armour.  For me the metal work on the sode and dou of 49 is something I want to look at more closely only as I nearly bought it a while ago unseen for the dou, so I might end up lamenting that decision.  Lot 70 is an interesting mask with hinged ears which i haven't seen before so special. I personally like variegated lacing and honkozane and so lots 46,47, and 53 appeal to me if money was no object. 

 

Lots of items - I am also planning a trip up to view.  

 

 

 

 

Graham - agree , honkozane is always good to see and so are sashimono. I am wondering if the armours with the sashimono and the Juyo armours are coming directly from Japan.....

Speaking of near misses, at the previous Sotheby's auction there was an armour I considered hard that sold for 5x what I could have bought it for directly in Japan.Of course I kicked myself after the auction. 

 

 

One way or another there are a lot of great items to see at this auction and it will be an enjoyable and learning experience to view them. I think we shall need to make a couple of visits given the volume of all lots.  

[Baba Yaga]

1 hour ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

I was asking as I am totally clueless about armor. However here are few points on some of the old swords in the auction that got me thinking about armor prices...

 

For example that Yasumitsu wakizashi that has 24,000 - 30,000 GBP estimate was sold at Aoi Auctions late last year. Don't remember the ending price but it started from 1,3M (c. 8,000 GBP) and Tsuruta being a shrewd business man, I don't think he'll give too many free meals as he gives fair prices that make him profit. Here is the link to the actual item through Web Archive: https://web.archive.org/web/20211203182132/https://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashi-bizen-osafune-yasumitsu/

 

Also the Tegai Kanekiyo with 15,000 - 18,000 GBP estimate has been sold by Aoi on few occasions. Here it was first sold by 650K Yen (c. 4,000 GBP): https://www.aoijapan.net/katana-mumeitegai-kanekiyo/ the more recent sale of it is here and price was still the same in 2021: https://web.archive.org/web/20210301101236/https://www.aoijapan.com/katana-mumeitegai-kanekiyo/

 

The Iwato Ichimonji with 50,000 - 70,000 GBP estimate was listed at Aoi for 2,3M Yen (c. 14,000 GBP) in early 2021. Unfortunately this item was removed online and can't be accessed anymore but I have info on it.

 

Now while you can say that items are worth what someone is willing to pay, or you shouldn't look at old prices, etc... To me these are not some super rare gems as I feel they are made out to be by the auction company. They are decent items but with highly inflated price estimates.

 

Economy at the time of sales dictates much in middle market items.  Tegai Kanekiyo

https://www.samuraimuseum.jp/shop/product/antique-Japanese-sword-katana-attributed-to-tegai-kanekiyo-nbthk-tokubetsu-hozon-certificate/

[GN174]

With the world of the internet then the majority of items going to auction in whatever collectable market will have been seen before and markets for everything are faster moving these days as is society. The days of the collection never seen for last 100 years will be few and far between, There are the odd things like an armour came up for auction in Paris recently that was published in Ancienne collection du Dr. Mène, Vente Charpentier et Lair-Dubreuil, Hôtel Drouot, 21 avril 1913, n°6 et reproduite au catalogue. That hadn't to my knowledge been seen in for a long time. Ultimately there are only so many fine examples of everything and so things tend to resurface and change hands. Part of the reason why collectors join forums and society's is to obviously discuss with like minded people but also to educate themselves to become an educated buyer, we all like to think that our knowledge scored us a deal or helped us to avoid a mistake or two. Buyers at the big auction houses are not always collectors in the space they just like the look of something or want to own a Warhol or a Japanese sword as so for them price sensitivity will not be the key factor. 

 

Michael I wouldn't know if those armours are direct from Japan, you must assume some pieces are direct from Japan as to which I don't know. There are a lot of papered armours in Europe. 

[GN174]

11 hours ago, uwe said:

Hi Graham,

 

it's very difficult, if not impossible, to assess an age to these adornments (maedate, ushirodate, sashimono.....etc) based on pictures of this quality. However, I agree with you about the Wakisaka armor. Beseides the "1,5" Wakisaka gusoku in my posession, I can roughly trace the numbers you mentioned.

Beyond that I would like to hold back with further comments in public. Not because there is nothing to say, but because the sale is still pending....

Uwe,

 

I am correct in saying that these armours were on the field or thought to have been on the field at Sekigahara. 

 

Best

 

Graham

[uwe]

Allegedly yes, Graham!

There is no proof so far, but the age could match.

[Gakusee]

Graham 

Thanks for the comments. I agree. The Dr Mene armour underwent some enhancements so to speak and additions but was good to see its emergence. 
The Ott collection that was dispersed some 7-8 years ago was another good one. 
 

I am aware and agree that there are a lot of high-end and papered armours in Europe. In fact we know some of their owners. 
 

Let us see how this goes. 
 

 

 

[GN174]

I have the hard copy book of the Ott collection sale, some very nice pieces there. I think the Berlin Samurai museum picked up a few pieces from that auction. Yes the Dr Mene armour was not quite the same when it resurfaced. 

[Luc T]

The Mene armor was also interesting  because it was published in 1913,  when the collection was sold.   A good pedigree is worth something.

If you want to buy, but you feel a bit unsure, the nkbkhk papered armors will give you the comfort of a screening by Japans top experts.   And the quality of a Saotome kabuto never lies.  Th red urushi one  (4) however is not a ‘Saotome 

and nr 3  has a poor quality for the school.

[mas4t0]

51 minutes ago, Luc T said:

The Mene armor was also interesting  because it was published in 1913,  when the collection was sold.   A good pedigree is worth something.

If you want to buy, but you feel a bit unsure, the nkbkhk papered armors will give you the comfort of a screening by Japans top experts.   And the quality of a Saotome kabuto never lies.  Th red urushi one  (4) however is not a ‘Saotome 

and nr 3  has a poor quality for the school.

 

Thank you very much Luc.