Ayasugi Wakizashi, Who made this?

[jt nesbitt]

Hey Gang-

 Apologies in advance for my lack of participation recently. I have been completely immersed in getting the new motorcycle into production.....

 Presented for your consideration is a little slice of completely wore-out nihonto, of dubious origin.

 The jihada is ayasugi, mixed with mokume, but very faint due to neglect and age, the mei barely legible and the first character now lives really close to the mune-machi. I used talc to bring out the mei, and a little trick lighting with digital filters to make it as clear as possible. 

 Please help me identify this strange Wak. I bought it on Ebay for $700 cause it looked like s**t, but was interesting. I have hit a wall because it doesn't really fit into any category that my limited library of reference books has.

 This is a thin blade measuring 5.28 mm at the mune-machi

 But polished to death cause the nakago is 5.9 at the widest point.

 The nagasa is currently 40cm (15.75"), but was probably shortened from the tip down considering the position of the first character of the mei which now lives under the habaki. This does not make sense when considering that the blade has what appears to be a nice healthy boshi....

Width at the ha-machi is 28.2mm

 Please help me learn a little bit about this junk, keeping in mind that ALL nihonto has value....it's just relative. Thank you! -- JT

[jt nesbitt]

more images- 

[jt nesbitt]

Yet more-

[PNSSHOGUN]

The last character looks a bit like "Sa-左".

[xiayang]

左衛門三郎左 = Saemon Saburō Sa

[Rivkin]

Longish hirazukuri waki with large sori - Muromachi, likely 1530. 

The work looks classic Gassan.

No comment on the signature I guess.

[jt nesbitt]

I am going to assume that the signature is a forgery, but done a long time ago on a Gassan wakizashi? Does this make sense?

I can't find a signature for "Saemon Sabouro Sa" anywhere and it would seem very weird for a forger to include a smiths given name...why not just forge "Sa"? less likely to attract suspicion, right?

I would be very grateful if someone would please translate the registration card copy, mainly to know when this thing was registered. THANK YOU so much, Y'all! -- JT 

[C0D]

More than Gassan this looks more like Shitahara, also nakago shape would fit

[Baba Yaga]

Greatly shorten something - or other that's 500years old, looking at the Nakago. Nakago appears by "photos" not in great shape. 

Other than that, looks like you received what you paid for. 

[Matsunoki]

JT….for what it’s worth….I would have bought this if it was put in front of me. I agree….it looks interesting. Unless it has been retempered, the presence of an obvious boshi means it hasn’t been shortened at that end, nor does it look shortened at the other end to my eyes. The nakago does look a tad “old” …..but the whole blade looks old to me. From the images it looks like the hamon ends at where the machi used to be (unless its a disguising polish) which does at least imply “ubu”. And anyway, how many blades do we see with decent ayasugi hada?…….another reason to buy it in my book. Like you say….they all have value….and it need not necessarily be monetary value. I am not qualified to comment on the Mei….except that it does not look in the right place! I applaud. Colin.

[DRDave]

JT, you might get a better response by posting the registration photo in the translation assistance section.  I'm not able to do much, but the left most column appears to start with Showa 29, which would be 1954.   Looks Ko-Gassan to me.  The nakago is a mystery.  

 

BTW, the Curtiss designs are terrific.

[SteveM]

Registration certificate says, in parentheses "4 Characters Illegible", then "-rō Sa".

 

The signature is trying to be this smith.

https://meitou.info/index.php/左安吉

 

 

[Peter Bleed]

This is - and has been - a very interesting point of discussion. Thank you JT. If mumei I would never have guessed SA, but it cries for modern Kantei. I think this deserves a trip to Tokyo. Please keep us informed.

Peter

[Curran]

Ayasugi hada is fairly common in the Sa school, though different in appearance to my eyes than Gassan ayasugi.

 

Bill Miller with his many fine Sa school blades empirically taught me this last Fall as I looked at several of his blades with his assistance.

Very kind of him and a good lesson I will not soon forget.

 

The signature is more likely to be added than authentic,

but at least the workmanship is in the right ballpark- I think.

Take my opinion with a grain of salt, as fittings are more my wheelhouse.

 

[DRDave]

On 5/8/2022 at 4:18 PM, Curran said:

Ayasugi hada is fairly common in the Sa school, though different in appearance to my eyes than Gassan ayasugi.

 

Bill Miller with his many fine Sa school blades empirically taught me this last Fall as I looked at several of his blades with his assistance.

Very kind of him and a good lesson I will not soon forget.

 

The signature is more likely to be added than authentic,

but at least the workmanship is in the right ballpark- I think.

Take my opinion with a grain of salt, as fittings are more my wheelhouse.

 

Interesting.  Fred mentions ayasugi hada in Jitsu'a den blades here:  https://www.nihonto.com/jitsua/

[Rivkin]

For what its worth:

Kyushu schools have it quite often, as well as Houju. But it looks different - you have a very prominent line of masame somewhat above the hamon which does a bit of a sinusoid. Its not strictly periodic and also the sinusoid tends to be quite wide with respect to its amplitude. When sinusoid is strictly periodic, high amplitude but rather narrow I personally take this as Gassan.

[jt nesbitt]

14 hours ago, DRDave said:

 

Interesting.  Fred mentions ayasugi hada in Jitsu'a den blades here:  https://www.nihonto.com/jitsua/

Dave -

In this very cool link that you sent about Chikuzen Jitsua the author of the piece very accurately describes what I am seeing with this hada as "itame mixed with ayasugi and some flowing masame". It also describes it as "rustic" - I would go for that when describing this piece. 

 Is it possible that the "mei" on this blade was done fairly soon after this was made in an attempt to describe this as a Sa blade that was made before Saemon Saburo studied under Masamune and became the "Great Sa"?

 If that were the case, this would not be a Mei, but rather an attribution that someone added, but I am positive that this signature - whatever it is - was done in period.

 Is it possible that this is an early "rustic" Chikuzen Sa done while working in the family shop with his father?

 The shape and length of this blade says Muromachi, but it is very thin, less than .250" (5.9mm) when it was first made.

 There is no Habaki because the nakago is wider than the blade due to polishing, the first character lives halfway into the polish.....Weird, right?

 Registered in 1954 3 years after the program began. 

 Sayagaki is consistent with the "signature", yes?

 For what it's worth- This blade feels very thin and light in hand, almost utilitarian -  like a butcher's knife.

 Thanks to everyone who posted! Any further observations? What have I overlooked here? Love this interaction very much! -- JT

 

 

 

[Baba Yaga]

ayasugi hada is not the apparent sugata, or the apparent sugata is not ayasugi hada,

[Jussi Ekholm]

I would think similar to Kirill on this one. Long hirazukuri wakizashi would be fitting for late Muromachi and I feel ayasugi with very regular form would point me towards Gassan. I think Hōju, early Kyūshū smiths etc. would have more "organic" looking running ayasugi. It is difficult to describe it by words, so I will borrow picture of excellent Jitsua tachi from Tōken Matsumoto.

 

 

 

[jt nesbitt]

So am I finding a consensus here?  - 

 This is Gassan work from the late Muromachi (which has value)

 That has a forged Mei done long ago (that renders it worthless except for educational purposes).

 That has a nakago in poor condition, and is polished to death (also rendering it worthless).

How very interesting!

I think that it was money VERY well spent, and thank you all for your input! I learned a lot! --- JT

 

P.S. The only remaining mystery is -  why on earth would a forger include a smith's given name?

 

 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by jt nesbitt
added info

[Baba Yaga]

2 minutes ago, jt nesbitt said:

 

P.S. The only remaining mystery is -  why on earth would a forger include a smith's given name?

 

 

 

 

I suggest you watch the movie documentary "Sour Grapes". You'll see a lot of collecting similarities.  

[jt nesbitt]

9 minutes ago, Baba Yaga said:

I suggest you watch the movie documentary "Sour Grapes". You'll see a lot of collecting similarities.  

Uh - not at all similar. You are implying that the only reason for collecting is to profit from the act of acquiring things. My motivation is to learn more about the subject matter (education).

 Reading books can only take me so far.

 I am a visual learner, and going through the exercise of studying, photographing, and asking experts foolish questions is OK with me, as long as it's OK with everybody else.

 I think that this Piece of Nihonto is very interesting BECAUSE it is so flawed. Kinda like me. -- JT 

[Baba Yaga]

15 minutes ago, jt nesbitt said:

Uh - not at all similar. You are implying that the only reason for collecting is to profit from the act of acquiring things. My motivation is to learn more about the subject matter (education).

 Reading books can only take me so far.

 I am a visual learner, and going through the exercise of studying, photographing, and asking experts foolish questions is OK with me, as long as it's OK with everybody else.

 I think that this Piece of Nihonto is very interesting BECAUSE it is so flawed. Kinda like me. -- JT 

I'm also a visual leaner. I think you asked about why GIMEI.  

BTW a good friend of mine one best record with his drag bike at Bonneville and I know many top designers in CA. He's 6.4 and wore pink leathers as a joke. 

[Rivkin]

Its not worthless - the nakago is in poor condition but not enough to kill it. Regarding the signature, its a difficult question. Overall appraisers are very reluctant to callout any late Muromachi signature as gimei. Handed many a paper with a spoken comment "we suspect the signature was added later" or even one of the phrases suggesting such on the paper itself.

There is no guarantee against someone really taking a smith name Sadamune around 1540 and forging in some crazy style. 

Sometimes they'll note that the work is Muromachi and will issue a paper.

The basic reasoning is if the signature matches the style somewhat and if the signature does not directly copy something extremely well known, it will paper.

If it says "Rai Kunitoshi" they'll probably not paper it, if its something in suguha and signed "Kunitoshi" - it will paper to Kunitoshi (Muromachi). Even if its an obvious Muromachi ripoff from Kunitoshi and ugly as hell.

 

Sa is one of the most difficult schools to study because they kept forging in Kyushu style until the end. The "dealer speak" is to always involve Masamune jitetsu but the truth is almost everything Sa branches produced in Muromachi is Kyushu-pedestrian.

Were this just some ugly work in suguha with something Sa signature, it might have just paper with a note its Muromachi.

Here the work is just "too Gassan" to ignore this fact, and there is a conflict - you want to paper it to Gassan, but there is this strange signature in the way.