Kanemitsu?

[SwordGuyJoe]

This looks a bit like my Kanehiro, but I just find it hard to believe that Kanehiro keeps haunting me from his grave...

 

Regards,

Joe

[Stephen]

maybe Kanetsugu

[John A Stuart]

I think Stephen is right. John

[Clive Sinclaire]

This reads: Seki kokuin NOSHU JU TSUKAHARA KANETSUGU KIN SAKU, or so I believe. I am sure you realise that it is only a Showa-to.

Clive Sinclaire

[SwordGuyJoe]

Clive,

I understand that it is most likely Showato, although this smith is attributed to gendaito as well. Able to find that thanks to you. I am looking for a good Kai-gunto and this one seems to be in pretty good shape.

 

Regards,

Joe

[Ted Tenold]

Joe,

 

As Arsenal/Factory made pieces go, they will all look very much similar. They were mass produced and even the signatures will look greatly alike because they were inscribed by an individual with that job. As I understand it the variable are;

 

A) One smith who signed for other smiths as well as himself, the signature then being call "Daimei". These are generally range in quality of inscription from quite nice, to at least legible. They tend to be on better works of more prominant smiths.

 

B) One particular who's job it was to inscribe the blades that were made by smiths in the factory. This "specialist" (and I hesitate to use the term for fear of the context) is called a "Nakarishi" and these types of signatures are called Nakarishimei. These look choppy and angular but are still legible even if not particularly pretty. These tend to be on medium to lower quality productions.

 

C) Either of the above that inscribed swords with a downright ugly style of mei called "kazuuchimei". "Kazuuchi" means mass produced with little attention to any real quality at all. These signatures generally resemble a chicken that has tracked ink across the nakago. The kanji look like a series of arrows that point in various directions and can be difficult if not impossible to discern. These are on the lowest quality blades and become more common as the war progressed and quantity really began to trump quality.

 

Someone more versed in Gunto may correct me on the particulars, but these characteristics have been a point of observation to me over the years.

[Clive Sinclaire]

Joe

It is not a question of "most likely a Showa-to"- it is certainly, definitely, no doubt, unquestionably so. Even if he made gendaito as you say, this is NOT one of them. Be in no doubt about this.

Clive

[Brian]

Clive,

Is this based on the Seki arsenal stamp?

I know there have been cases of Showa-stamped blades being Gendaito, but not sure if this is the case with the Seki stamp.

I was reading F&G again, and very interesting when they discussed Seki during WW2 and spoke to a smith who worked there. It wasn't an arsenal as such, it was a large amount of small smiths all through the town, making swords and submitting them for the war effort. I will have to read again and post the excerpt.

 

Brian

[Clive Sinclaire]

Brian

It is primarilly based on the Seki stamp but the whole nakago and inscription scream Showa-to. If this is doubted, then try importing it into Japan where it would be confiscated and destroyed as these swords remain illegal, as I am sure you are aware. I have never heard of a gendaito with the Seki or Showa kokuin because I am sure they do not exist. It does not matter that Seki was not an arsenal as we might understand it, it is the production method they used that defines them as Showa-to. I did not want Joe to be under any mistaken illusions that this might be gendai-to and buy it at gendai-to prices. I am sure it will not be properly forged or quenched and should be avoided by all those other than militaria collectors in my humble opinion.

Clive

[SwordGuyJoe]

Brian and Clive,

Thank you for your input. I appreciate it and am trying to absorb as much from you guys as possible.

 

Thanks,

Joe

[Guest nickn]

i have owned a few gendiato with seki stamps .by gendiato i mean the swords had hada and a water quenched hamon . i sent one for polish in Japan ,after removing the seki stamp, i believe it was a kane michi i will try and find the before and after photos and post them

[Brian]

Yep..I agree with everything you wrote Clive, except a bit of confusion about no Gendaito having Showa or Seki stamps. I was always under that same impression, but every time I felt certain that all are Showato, someone popped up and showed a blade they were confident was Gendaito and had a Showa stamp. Seeing as these were military acceptance stamps, I assume it is possible that some hand forged blades went for the military stamping before being issued, but I still lean towards your viewpoint. I know for the fact that there are many papered blades in Japan that show signs of a stamp having been removed. Even Aoi has listed a few before. Whether they fall under the category of 'mill steel' quasi-gendaito or otherwise aren't fully made of tamahagane...that is the big question I suppose. A sword can be not made from tamahagane and still show hada and hataraki, so that would explain why some have received torokusho in Japan, where they can sometimes overlook this.

Ryujin Swords has a write up on one here: http://www.ryujinswords.com/kanezane.htm

There is also an interesting article at http://www.ryujinswords.com/shostamp.htm where he talks about the various types of construction and stamps.

It seems to me that the presence of a stamp does show that it isn't true Nihonto though. Maybe forged and folded from Swedish steel railway tracks and water quenched?

Of course most are indeed just machine made bar stock and oil quenched Showato.

None of this is refering to this particular blade though..I am just talking in the general sense.

The Seki forges comments I made are also just for the interest, and do not relate to this particular blade.

As Clive pointed out, it wouldn't be considered Nihonto and of course any sword with a Showa or Seki stamp is illegal in Japan and will not be allowed to enter the country.

I would be interested in any other examples of swords with stamps that do not appear oil quenched and have hada and nie/nioi and hataraki.

 

Brian

 

Edit to add: Apologies, it was not F&G where I was recently reading the excellent article about Seki during WW2. I cannot seem to remember where I read it now. Does anyone have any idea? The story was about a collector who was able to contact the maker of his sword over a period of a few years long after the war, and learned a lot about how things worked in Sseki during the war, and how there were many backyard forges where people were all working on swords for the war effort. Just an interesting read. Anyone remember where this write-up was?

[Brian]

Here is one that appears to have had a stamp removed and has sunagashi, ji nie, inazuma and much chikei in the ji. Could be a mill steel semi-Gendaito or maybe they are mistaken about the stamp?

 

Brian

 

Note - There also appears to be a smaller version of the Seki stamp that is sometimes used in conjunction with the star stamp. This may be the Seki Token Corporation's trademark or accepting stamp as described here: http://www.nihontocraft.com/Kanehide.html and is not to be confused with the regular Seki stamp.

[Clive Sinclaire]

Brian

I vaguely remember something like that too. Was it Asano Kanezane or Ozawa Masatoshi or someone like that? Maybe in a JSS/US Newsletter? Sorry but I am a bit vague on these smiths!

Clive

[nagamaki - Franco]

  nickn said:

i have owned a few gendiato with seki stamps .by gendiato i mean the swords had hada and a water quenched hamon . i sent one for polish in Japan ,after removing the seki stamp, i believe it was a kane michi i will try and find the before and after photos and post them

 

hi, what was the shinsa result? The reason for asking is that while the removal of the seki stamp might get the sword past Japanese customs, the real litmus test will be what happens when submitted to shinsa.

[drbvac]

I am sure we went through this several times but I dont mind re-visiting it knowing Clive'e expertise. FOr some of you who may remember here are a couple of pics of my gendaito Kanefusa (23rd) who has a write up ion Richs site. I am almost positive it was made in the thirties and then stamped with the showa stamp as an acceptance for military use and maybe thats why the stamp is not clear. I also am pretty sure it was made in the traditional way by this smith and water quenched - but I have no idea of the source of the steel! SO ?

[Guest nickn]

hozen i believe i kept a photo copy and will post it when found

the stamp was just below the habaki and half struck on the nakago shinogi so easy to remove

[cisco-san]

  nickn said:

hozen i believe i kept a photo copy and will post it when found

the stamp was just below the habaki and half struck on the nakago shinogi so easy to remove

 

 

Sorry to open this thread again but I own a Kanemichi as well and it seems that something on the right side above the mekugi ana has also been removed (see red circle) - maybe a seki, showa... stamp. The mei seem like the mei in J. Slough´s book page 47 on the right site.

 

Now I am not sure any more if it is still a gendaito, even it has a nice hamon (Sanbonsugi, Sunagashi) and there is itame and masame in Jigane.

Sorry for the low quality of the photo - I still work on my improvement!

 

Of course I like this sword because it was my first one and I am sure not the last one, but now I am a little bit confused :?

 

 

 

Many thanks

[cisco-san]

  cisco-san said:

  nickn said:

hozen i believe i kept a photo copy and will post it when found

the stamp was just below the habaki and half struck on the nakago shinogi so easy to remove

 

 

Sorry to open this thread again but I own a Kanemichi as well and it seems that something on the right side above the mekugi ana has also been removed (see red circle) - maybe a seki, showa... stamp. The mei seem like the mei in J. Slough´s book page 47 on the right site.

 

Now I am not sure any more if it is still a gendaito, even it has a nice hamon (Sanbonsugi, Sunagashi) and there is itame and masame in Jigane.

Sorry for the low quality of the photo - I still work on my improvement!

 

Of course I like this sword because it was my first one and I am sure not the last one, but now I am a little bit confused :?

 

 

 

Many thanks

 

Has nobody an idea :?

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

I think it is a Seki stamp which was removed. About Showato/Gendaito (which are not my favorite), my behaviour is very manichean, stamp (even star stamp) = Showato. No stamp maybe Gendaito.

 

Below another Seki Kanemichi nakago.

 

[John A Stuart]

Jacques, "my behaviour is very manichean". Of the philosophy of Manes from Persia. A hodge podge of religous doctrine that basically says the physical world is evil and our minds are of the divine and good. Just wondering how this relates to gunto. No sweat. John

[Aloof Pegasus]

Should have thought that was obvious. Our minds re occupied with thye lofty concents of hada, hamon etc In conflict with the evil world of gimei (Jacques' speciality) sword prices and ebay conmen.

NE?

[Jean]

Hi John,

 

  Quote

"my behaviour is very manichean"

 

Over the centuries, in France, we have oversimplified this doctrine. Being Manichean means it is either black or white (there is no grey). The alternative is "yes" or "no" without any room for "perhaps"

[John A Stuart]

Gotcha' Thanks, Jean. Although I liked Aloof Pegasus's reasoning. :lol: John

[cisco-san]

Thanks at all for your comments.

 

Once my balance allows it I will send it to Japan for a final polish (although I bought it as full polished but there are some scratches on the Kissaki - I think currently it is in war time polish) and I will try to get papers

[cisco-san]

  nickn said:

hozen i believe i kept a photo copy and will post it when found

the stamp was just below the habaki and half struck on the nakago shinogi so easy to remove

 

Does somebody know "nickn"´s email or if he is still member of this board

[Stephen]

  Quote

I will send it to Japan for a final polish

 

might rethink that, it may not come back to you and be broken then trashed.

 

Id save your hard earned money. have a local polish it if you really want it done that bad and forget the papers.

[cisco-san]

  Stephen said:

  Quote

I will send it to Japan for a final polish

 

might rethink that, it may not come back to you and be broken then trashed.

 

Id save your hard earned money. have a local polish it if you really want it done that bad and forget the papers.

 

 

Dear Stephen,

 

many thanks.

Do you also think so if I say that I bought if from Japan even I never saw the sword registration paper :?

[Stephen]

Not sure what your saying but don't think they care what you say, just that its showa to then could take it from you and destroy it.

[Brian]

I think what Klaus is saying is that this originally came from Japan, and although he never saw the torokusho, it probably had one.

Klaus, Stephen's point is that what happened once, does not mean it has to happen again. This time, if they think it is Showato, they won't allow it in, no matter what happened in the past. However they do seem to be getting slightly more lenient nowdays, and it might well make it in.

Whether it is worth that or not....is the question that Klaus has to work out for himself.

 

Brian