Please help identifying a family sword

[Clockwork]

My family owns a Japanese sword that we never really thought about much because my grandfather had a habit of picking things up when he was in the Army.  It wasn't until my father was working on our family tree that we realized the sword belonged to the brother of my great, great, grandfather who spent a large portion of his life in Japan.  My father was more interested in the people than the items so he put the sword away. I saw the sword for the time in years and realized it was in much better shape than I remembered and that it might be possible to learn more about the sword itself.  Googling led me here.  I'm hoping to find out more about the time frame it's from, identifying marks and how it should be cared for so it doesn't deteriorate any further.  Since my ancestor (Franklin Upton) was Canadian I'm also curious if there's anyway to tell if the sword was just something he bought, or if it might of been presented to him.   According to our records Franklin was presented the Order of the Rising Sun, and spent time as part of the retinue to a Japanese prince who was visiting Canada.  Thank you for your time.

[David Flynn]

Unfortunately, one can't tell much from these photo's   The handle needs to  be removed (one bamboo peg holds it together) with photos of the Tang as well as more and better photos of every thing.

Also, this isn't a military sword, it's an antique and mounted as such.  May I suggest you post in the Nihonto section

[Ray Singer]

From the small bit we can see, there is enough to show it may be an interesting sword. The mountings wouid likely be Edo period and the blade at least Edo period, if not older. The scabbard (saya) has the family crest associated with the Tokugawa, but is one which appears on a variety of swords (and objects) during the Edo period not directly associated with ownership by the Tokugawa family. Please do show us the tang of the blade, and additional detail photos. 

 

Best regards, 

Ray 

[Ray Singer]

And very important, don't do anything on your own to polish the blade or try to improve its appearance. Don't remove any rust from the tang. If you have any maintenance questions, just ask here. 

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Matthew,

Here is a care and handling brochure you should read twice:

https://nbthk-ab2.org/sword-characteristics/   scrool down.

Best, Grey

[WulinRuilong]

16 hours ago, Ray Singer said:

The mountings wouid likely be Edo period and the blade at least Edo period, if not older. The scabbard (saya) has the family crest associated with the Tokugawa, but is one which appears on a variety of swords (and objects) during the Edo period not directly associated with ownership by the Tokugawa family.

I don't think the mountings can be dated to Edo period because of the Tokugawa clan mon on the saya. 

It is not permissible to make Tokugawa clan mon on the saya if the owner is not a member of Tokugawa clan in Edo period. Most of these sayas are souvenirs made after the Meiji Restoration.

[Clockwork]

Thank you for the advice, I'll have to talk to my family to see if removing the handle is an option.  

[DoTanuki yokai]

I think this video will give you a good idea of the process.

It is not destructive and should not make your family worry if done right.

 

 

[Rivkin]

Would love to see nakago and definitely boshi on this one. Suspect its shinto but can be a decent piece. Yes, a lot of Tokugawa mon are very late creations, yet it was also one of the most common mons in Edo period. Matsudaira used it and also Tokugawa did send their children for adoption to other Daimyo, and you then see this adopting lineage at times using some manner of Aoi mon as well.

 

There are some arcane methods to determining aoi's age and attribution, like whether the rays are parallel or converging, whether the stems are completely separated as here (which I think tend to be Matsudaira) or not etc.. Hell knows where my book on Aoi versions is though.... but yes this can be a much later creation as well hard to guess without full resolution photo of the mon and makie around it. Makie in most products did change noticably towards the later years of Meiji.

[WulinRuilong]

4 hours ago, Rivkin said:

Matsudaira used it and also Tokugawa did send their children for adoption to other Daimyo, and you then see this adopting lineage at times using some manner of Aoi mon as well.

Different branches of Tokugawa clan use different style of Aoi mon. The Aoi mon on this saya is not belong to any Matsudaira branch but only used by the Shogun family, Owari Tokugawa family, Kishū Tokugawa family and Mito Tokugawa family.

[Ray Singer]

What I said was 'ownership by the Tokugawa family'. Meaning that the presence of an aoi-mon doesn't necessarily mean the sword is a Tokugawa-denrai. 

 

  

On 4/19/2022 at 3:10 PM, WulinRuilong said:

I don't think the mountings can be dated to Edo period because of the Tokugawa clan mon on the saya. 

It is not permissible to make Tokugawa clan mon on the saya if the owner is not a member of Tokugawa clan in Edo period. Most of these sayas are souvenirs made after the Meiji Restoration.

 

[Clockwork]

I must say it's a pleasure to hear from knowledgeable people, I have to look up some words.  I appreciate the help

[Clockwork]

On 4/19/2022 at 5:47 PM, DoTanuki yokai said:

I think this video will give you a good idea of the process.

It is not destructive and should not make your family worry if done right.

 

 

Thank you for this, the tail end of the handle is cracked so the family wants to find someone to do it for us.  If we find anyone I'll post some more pictures.  

[Ray Singer]

43 minutes ago, Clockwork said:

Thank you for this, the tail end of the handle is cracked so the family wants to find someone to do it for us.  If we find anyone I'll post some more pictures.  

 

You actually have the right person right there in that post. Speak with Moses Becerra: nihontoantiques.com