reinhard Posted March 31, 2009 Report Posted March 31, 2009 Since my ways have been criticized lately in hijacked threads, I would like to start a new one without bothering other people, who are asking questions about real objects. It's true: I'm not particularly diplomatic, but just as a sidenote: Learning about NihonTo in Japan, you will eventually get addressed to in a far less diplomatic way, always in a polite manner though. Diplomacy and politeness are sometimes confused, I think. - This is "Nihonto message board". It is not "Japanese sabre massage board". Every now and then some of the statements on NMB remind me of creationist's, claiming evolution is nothing but a contestable theory. - It's true: NihonTo is no exact science, but a lot of research has been done. Most of it was never published outside of Japan and even less so in non-Japanese languages. This makes it difficult at times, not always, to establish a constructional dialogue with somebody, whose knowledge is mainly based on unfiltered, western websites and a couple of outdated books, saying: "...but I don't think so....I believe that....and my opinion is as good as anybodys (especially yours)!!!!". I'm sorry, it's not. NihonTo is not about "thinking", "believing" or insisting. It is part of Japan's history of art and can be learned to some extent. - Everybody is free and wanted to ask and contribute, of course, but not all members are talking on the same eye-level as far as knowledge and experience is concerned. I've never pretended to be the ultimate oracle around here, but I often add some evidence to what I'm saying; using more recent, waterproof material if available. Sometimes I don't, when things are just too obvious. Sometimes I'm wrong. - But what really annoys me, are people intentionally abusing a thread in order to play silly games, as happend recently. So....Anybody disagreeing with these points of view or the way one of my posts is written, is kindly invited to post it HERE and not hijacking other people's threads. (If you wanna tell the bastard where to go: PM me. I can take it). This will bring a little relief to the mods, for I intend to clean the mess on this one myself. reinhard PS.: My English is not very good and rather rusty. I'm begging for a little indulgence for semantic misunderstandings in past and future.
John A Stuart Posted March 31, 2009 Report Posted March 31, 2009 Reinhard et al., I think directness and forthrightness are a necessary part of the learning process. There are certain aspects in any study which brook no argument, they are dogma. The western style of education lately has swung to the liberal thought that it is better to guide someone gently into coming to the right decision. The 'old school' method was to learn the facts by rote and after many years be permitted to challenge established theory. I see benefits to both systems, but, they must not be exclusive to each other. Personally, I would rather be told 'No, you are wrong. Rethink.', than be allowed to blindly grope in the wrong direction in hope of an 'eureka' moment. So, if I am wrong yell loud and clear, it is why I am here. I will never be offended. Any criticism made should not be considered a personal attack, although it must be concise and informative. I hope everyone realises that self-aggrandisement is not a reason to join in, that it is the love of the subject that motivates us. My wish would be, courtesy and respect in all things as well as brutal honesty. I don't mean to sermonise, but, sometimes we need to remember it is a community and rather small at that. John
Brian Posted March 31, 2009 Report Posted March 31, 2009 I like what you wrote John. I will leave this up for a bit, so that people who wish to, can have their say. I tend to feel that 99% of the people here have no real issues, and understand that things get awkward at times, but those very few times are usually far blown out of proportion. In the grand scheme of things, this subject is bigger than any of us, and a very few incidents really aren't as serious as anyone would like to make out they are. I have seen smaller (and bigger) forums have far more issues than we do, and I think that comparatively speaking, we do quite well for outsiders in a subject that was never intended for the Western way of thinking. Brian
Marius Posted March 31, 2009 Report Posted March 31, 2009 Reinhard, your post is quite interesting, and I agree with it, but what to you mean by hijacked threads? I am on this forum for some time now, I have seen discussions diverting from a topic, but I have always thought of it as of a natural flow of thoughts... What exactly do you mean?
Brian Posted March 31, 2009 Report Posted March 31, 2009 Mariusz, Thread hijacking is a common and accepted term used on forums when someone takes the subject completely away from the original theme to their own agenda. There are unwritten rules on forums that this is disrespectful to the original poster, and unless they consent, it is frowned upon. Not just here, but on all forums. If the topic relates to the original one, then it is sometimes overlooked, but the "natural flow of thoughts" has its limits. An example would be if the thread now continues on the subject of thread hijacking...you would then have hijacked this one. :lol: Brian
gumanthon Posted March 31, 2009 Report Posted March 31, 2009 Hello Everybody I think Reinhard and John have made some good points. But I think any debate is generally a good thing. Some people tend to get their knickers in a twist or upset unnecessarily. You cannot teach someone who is stupid specially when they do not want to learn or listen to bad for them. I would just like to say thank you to all the experts and knowledgeable people for making this site interesting. But I think that a little confrontational debate creates some interest . And it's always easy to recognize stupidity. Not to sound too serious I hope Best regards John
Brian Posted March 31, 2009 Report Posted March 31, 2009 I have always encouraged debate. But always emphasize polite and courteous debate. Confrontation is usually based more on personal feelings or outside influences. If people want to challenge a point made, it is simple to say "I don't agree..and here's why...." However people are too quick to get confrontational and take things personally. Which is strange given that many of us are a few thousand miles away from the other person, and they really don't have much of an influence in our real lives. Bit too wrapped up in the internet maybe? There is a whole real world out there. What I often do on the other forums I participate in, is to write a reply...then before I submit it, I take 5 minutes and read through it again. I have lost count of the number of times I have realised that what I wrote is phrased badly or rudely, and have deleted or re-written it. Just a friendly tip..use it or not. Brian
Marius Posted March 31, 2009 Report Posted March 31, 2009 Mariusz,Thread hijacking is a common and accepted term used on forums when someone takes the subject completely away from the original theme to their own agenda. There are unwritten rules on forums that this is disrespectful to the original poster, and unless they consent, it is frowned upon. Not just here, but on all forums. If the topic relates to the original one, then it is sometimes overlooked, but the "natural flow of thoughts" has its limits. An example would be if the thread now continues on the subject of thread hijacking...you would then have hijacked this one. :lol: Brian Brian, thanks for the explanation. I thought that conscious hijacking is simply impossible on this Forum, given the gentility of its users. But you are right about the limits to the natural flow... Reinhard loves debates, and rightly so, because debates allow people to learn (you don't learn if you talk to like-minded people only) The only thing where I disagree is the distinction between diplomacy and politeness. Diplomacy is sometimes about saying something which might be unpleasant in a polite manner. I have been told many times in this Forum that I have no idea what I am talking about, but it was always in a very diplomatic manner, and, it was true :-)
gumanthon Posted March 31, 2009 Report Posted March 31, 2009 Yes I agree totally with the point Brian badly to make badly badly written sentence can often be taken out of context. Something we sometimes do for sure :lol: kind regards John
drbvac Posted March 31, 2009 Report Posted March 31, 2009 Most if not all comments that I read have to be taken in context and who is saying them. The type of learning by rote that we older guys went through combined with a true respect , mostly earned, by the teachers we had usually resulted in individuals who could take any kind of criticism. There is nothing that beats knowledge combined with experience and one comes easier than the other, Having collected Nihonto for 20 years as a hobby only I can in no way pretend to be anywhere near an expert on any of it, and the respect for those that do will come through in the wording of the questions - which will be respected in the tone of the replies - at least that has been my experience. All the "true" experts on this board have responded to respectful questions with respectful answers and NIhinto is one area where a little knowledge can surely be a dangerous thing. Just because you did not get the answer you expected or wanted is not much of an excuse for bad behavior and if both sides of the learning equation are respectful - we all benefit!
SwordGuyJoe Posted March 31, 2009 Report Posted March 31, 2009 Message from a Newbie... While I agree with what everyone is saying here, I would like to interject something from the perspective of a newbie. I am sure for you guys, some of the questions new people - like me - post may be trivial and juvenile and far below the likes of some on this forum. While I haven't been talked to rudely in the handful of questions that I have asked, I am concerned that I will ask a stupid question and be treated stupidly because of it. You gentlemen (and women if any are reading) have been studying far longer than folks like me, but at one point in time - whether two years or twenty years ago - you were in the same boat as folks like me. I only ask that you talk to us newbies with patience, as has been my experience, so not to discourage less educated from such a beautiful hobby. I will continue to read and try to absorb what is being said here, so the stupid questions become more few and far between, but in the eventuality that I or one of my new counterparts ask a dumb question, please take the time to answer and tell me why. That has been my experience thus far and thank you - a few on this post already - for your help and guidance. Regards, Joe
Ford Hallam Posted March 31, 2009 Report Posted March 31, 2009 Hi Joe, and the usual suspects... firstly let me assure you, here is no such thing as a "stupid question". Only, unasked questions ...which leaves the person with the "unasked question" still "stupid". Of course I don't really mean stupid...merely still in the dark I think Brian put it well when he described the interplay between people here. Polite and respectful questions are almost invariably answered in a similar tone. The "irritations" arise when the reality of this relationship is ignored. In this, I agree wholeheartedly with the basic sentiment Reinhard expressed at the start of this thread. Reinhard and I haven't always agreed on matters here but I have complete respect for his understanding and his style of "combat". Real, definable and verifiable knowledge in this field is hard won...those, very generous, people who are prepared to interact here with all comers are putting themselves at a serious disadvantage because their audience is often unable to assess the true value of what is offered so freely. There is no conspiracy at work, good ideas, theories and opinions will survive the scrutiny of the group. Newbies can trust that this community is, in many respects, self correcting. This is precisely because there are so many dedicated and knowledgeable people here who really care about "getting it right". If, at times, ill advised or informed opinions are treated a little harshly then I think that not always a bad thing. The robust "cut and thrust" of intellectual debate will never be a bloodless thing and neither should it be. The pursuit of the best answer ( I hesitate to say "the truth") is far too important to trust to those too delicate to stomach a good argument. regards, Ford
hybridfiat Posted March 31, 2009 Report Posted March 31, 2009 "It's true: I'm not particularly diplomatic" Boy I thought it was only the english that were good at understatement!? Reinhard Ive learnt more from your forthright utterances than any other keep it up
reinhard Posted April 1, 2009 Author Report Posted April 1, 2009 Most if not all comments that I read have to be taken in context and who is saying them. This excellent quote should be understood in relation to "respect and politeness" and their true meaning. Nobody on NMB is expecting anybody to crawl in the dust, pretending to be humble and submissive. There's nothing wrong with speaking out loud and I do encourage newbies not to be shy. Like Ford (and others before him) said: "There are no stupid questions". All that is asked for is a little awareness of his/her own limits. - Apart from this, there is a fake "politeness". The notorious "IMHO" can express honest modesty (and in most cases it does), but sometimes it is used only as a key to play games. By now it doesn't mean anything anymore. Just for consideration. reinhard
reinhard Posted April 1, 2009 Author Report Posted April 1, 2009 In the grand scheme of things, this subject is bigger than any of us Brian Much bigger, and it should not be abused for trying to establish the "actual dominant alpha male". reinhard
Ted Tenold Posted April 1, 2009 Report Posted April 1, 2009 I guess the only complaint I have is that the title of this thread mislead me. I thought it was an opportunity to complain about anything, not just Reinhard. :lol: No disagreements here. A good debate is healthy as long as the aforementioned "rules of engagement" are respected. If not, then Brian initiates the tribunal. This subject is universally too big for anyone to claim omnipotence, and old thinking is still challenged with new approaches to thinking and study. None of that happens without debate.
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted April 1, 2009 Report Posted April 1, 2009 In the grand scheme of things, this subject is bigger than any of us Brian Much bigger, and it should not be abused for trying to establish the "actual dominant alpha male". reinhard
Joseph P. Posted April 15, 2009 Report Posted April 15, 2009 PS.: My English is not very good and rather rusty. I'm begging for a little indulgence for semantic misunderstandings in past and future. Hi reinhard, sorry to open up a relatively old thread but I wanted to know how you believe your English is rusty? You look to have excellent English to me.
Jean Posted April 15, 2009 Report Posted April 15, 2009 sorry to open up a relatively old thread but I wanted to know how you believe your English is rusty? You look to have excellent English to me. That was a booby trap, Joseph, that's what Reinhard meant by : "Apart from this, there is a fake "politeness". The notorious "IMHO" can express honest modesty ...By now it doesn't mean anything anymore. Just for consideration." As often, in most cases, when being carefull, Strangers write a better idioma than most natives. Reinhard English, as Carlo, Jacques are often flawless :D :D
reinhard Posted April 15, 2009 Author Report Posted April 15, 2009 No trap. My English used to be better twenty years ago, when I made far more use of it. I mentioned it because of semantic misunderstandings in the past and my tone. It eventually sounded harsher to native speakers than I intended to. reinhard
kusunokimasahige Posted April 16, 2009 Report Posted April 16, 2009 As a Somali Pirate i must protest in the strongest terms against the allegation of thread hijacking! We hijack ships! NOT threads!! For the rest i like the openness of the discussion and i hope this thread will survive indefinetely. KM
kusunokimasahige Posted April 16, 2009 Report Posted April 16, 2009 Strike me down in anger but i could not let this one go unnoticed... misunderstandings in the past and my tone. It eventually sounded harsher to native speakers than I intended to. Reinhard ( German name ) KM
Brian Posted April 16, 2009 Report Posted April 16, 2009 ...but i could not let this one go unnoticed... Should have tried a bit harder. I think we have said enough (and more) on this topic. Brian
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