JSA Posted April 16, 2022 Report Posted April 16, 2022 Hi, I’m trying to pinpoint the smith who forged this blade. Referring to Hawley, am I right with KUN1026? Thanks! Quote
Geraint Posted April 17, 2022 Report Posted April 17, 2022 Dear Jean-Sebastien. First of all thank you for sharing your sword. I like it. As the sword is papered we can assume that it is the smith you have identified. He is the only one of the Bitchu Mizuta school who signed in this way. Sesko identifies him as Ichizo, brother of Oyogo Kunishige and states that he ws awarded the title Yamashiro no Daijo in the second year of Shoho, 1645. Hope that helps a little. All the best. Quote
JSA Posted April 18, 2022 Author Report Posted April 18, 2022 Geraint, First of all, thank you very much for your input. It is really appreciated. You beat me to it, as I was about to add to my original post: The blade is indeed signed Yamashiro Daijyo Minamoto Kunishige (山城大掾源国重) and as you mentioned, I was also told that the smith's name is Ichizo (市蔵), the younger brother of Otsuki Yogoro Kunishige, the most highly-regarded swordsmith in Mizuta school (Oyogo Kunishige school, lead by Master Otsuki, Bitchu province). I was also told the blade was forged in the early Edo period, around 1645-1648, so everything is indeed pointing to KUN1026 (Hawley). The thing is I've also found 2 other smiths who signed their work Yamashiro Daijyo Minamoto Kunishige; KUN1037 and KUN1113 (same school, different era). I completely trust the source, but any directions or leads that could help confirm the smith would be appreciated. Here's one more pictures for your viewing pleasure. Quote
Jussi Ekholm Posted April 18, 2022 Report Posted April 18, 2022 I am not very familiar with Shintō smiths so I cannot say much with lot confidence as I don't really study them. However it seems to me that the majority of dealers seem to list swords signed this way as work of Kunishige from Musashi, Ōtsuki Denshichirō (大月伝七郎). Who apparently was the son of Ichizō Kunishige. They must have good original sources that make them say so. Here are some reputable dealers that all list the smith similarily in their description. Hopefully my understanding of Japanese is correct in this case. https://ginza.choshuya.co.jp/sale/gj/r1/008/05_kunishige.htm https://www.seiyudo.com/wa-080112.htm https://asahitoken.jp/contents/01_token/details/token-B/B079.html https://www.aoijapan.jp/脇差山城大掾源国重/ https://www.nipponto.co.jp/swords5/KT331392.htm https://tokka.biz/sword/kunishige8.html Markus lists 3 Kunishige smiths having the title Yamashiro no Daijō Quote Kunishige (国重), Shōhō (正保, 1644-1648), Bitchū Kunishige (国重), Jōkyō (貞享, 1684-1688), Bitchū Kunishige (国重), 2nd gen., Manji (万治, 1658-1661), Musashi But after reading the info on these I believe the bottom two smiths (and two entries in Seskos smith book) could be the same smith, Denshichirō. As I believe he seemed to have been moving from Bitchū to Edo and also worked in Tsuyama (which fits to both bottom 2 smiths and I think would be very unlikely happening otherwise). Unfortunately I haven't had Hawley in many years so I cannot say anything about his smith numbering. Here is also interesting one that is signed 備中国水田住 / 山城大掾源国重 https://toyuukai.com/2019/10/備中国水田住山城大掾源国重/ 4 Quote
JSA Posted April 18, 2022 Author Report Posted April 18, 2022 That’s good stuff Jussi, thanks. I think you might be right about duplicate entries in Seskos and Hawley as well. Actually, the 3rd link you provided is the very same blade. Looks like someone got their initial investment back and then some… Quote
JSA Posted April 18, 2022 Author Report Posted April 18, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, Jussi Ekholm said: https://asahitoken.jp/contents/01_token/details/token-B/B079.html I’m sorry, my Japanese is a little rusty: ”一ヶ所だけ小さい疵が確認できます。切先の棟に数ミリの割れのような疵です。鑑賞には差障りのない疵ですが、見て見ぬ振りをしてご紹介するわけにはいきません。あしからずご了承ください。”. Scratch or crack? Edit: Cutting ridge… There’s indeed a small crack on the mune, but French is my first language so I was a bit worried when a saw the words “crack” and “cutting”, as in cutting edge… Edited April 18, 2022 by JSA Additional info not worthy of a new post. Quote
SteveM Posted April 18, 2022 Report Posted April 18, 2022 Hi Jussi - I think you are correct. I spent some time looking at this today and I agree there seem to be only two Kunishige smiths who signed with Yamashiro-Daijō; Ichizō and his son Denshichirō. Ichizō would be Yamashiro-Daijō Kunishige the 1st, and his era is usually noted as Shōhō (1644) (ref. Fujishiro, Iimura) KUN1026 Denshichirō is Yamashiro-Daijō Kunishige the 2nd, and his era is usually noted as Jōkyō (1688) (ref. Fujishiro, Iimura) KUN1037 Most of the shops are authenticating their swords to Denshichirō based on the mei in Fujishiro, which is identical to the one in Jean-Sebastian's post. So this would be Fujishiro p 260, which should be the same as Hawley KUN1037. Alas, I don't own anything from Hawley either so I cannot check on the Hawley entry. Interesting to note, however, the description for the sword on the "Asahi Tōken" site: 銘鑑には万治と貞享頃の二人が載っていますが、寛文新刀の姿からは万治頃の國重かと思われます。ただ、これまで世に紹介されてきた國重の多くは貞享の國重としています。当店の推測は果たして正しいのかどうか。どちらも同人の可能性だってありえます。まあ、どのみち水田の系統には違いありませんが・・・ translation The swordsmith encyclopedias list two smiths (who used the name Yamashiro-Daijō), one from Manji (1658) and one from Jōkyō (1684), and judging from the kanbunshintō shape of this sword we assume this to be the work of Kunishige from the Manji era. However most of the Kunishige swords on the market are said to be from Kunishige of the Jōkyō era. We do not know if our assumption is correct. This sword could be from either one. Anyway, it is sure that this sword comes from the Mizuta line... I am guessing there is a Japanese source out there that lists Kunishige 2nd as coming from the Manji era, and this was referenced by both Markus as well as Asahi Tōken. None of my books (Fujishiro, Iimura, Tokuno) mention anything about a Manji era smith named Kunishige. So that is a slight mystery, but I'm pretty confident that the sword in the first post in this thread is the work of Yamashiro-no-jō Kunishige 2nd. The sword on the Toyūkai site is from Ichizō (Yamashiro-Daijō Kunishige 1st). 2 Quote
JSA Posted April 19, 2022 Author Report Posted April 19, 2022 22 hours ago, SteveM said: So that is a slight mystery, but I'm pretty confident that the sword in the first post in this thread is the work of Yamashiro-no-jō Kunishige 2nd. Thank you for taking the time to look into it @SteveM. There's definitely some confusion around the name, but are you suggesting that the blade in my possession should be attributed to Denshichirō instead of Ichizō? Because that blade was presented to me as Ichizo's (市蔵) work from early Edo period (Shōhō, 1645-1648). If that's true, the blade will still be as beautiful to my eyes, but the financial value will take a big hit as one is rated Chu-jo saku and the other one is not rated at all. Are confident are you about your claim that this blade was forged by Denshichirō? Is there any particular photo angles or parts of the blade that I could provide that could give you more info? Quote
SteveM Posted April 19, 2022 Report Posted April 19, 2022 I think the name on your sword looks like the names on the other swords which are attributed to Denshichirō (Yamashiro Daijō 2nd). In particular I think the whole sword has strong similarities to the ones from Asahi Tōken, Tokka, and Ginza Chōshuya: the mei, the file marks, the hamon. If your sword were by Ichizō, the name would look more like the name on the sword that Jussi linked to at the end of his post (the mei that reads "Bitchu-kuni Mizuta-jū...". I'm not an expert in kantei, so I wouldn't make any hasty conclusions based on some guy's opinion on an internet forum. If it were presented as the work of Ichizō, I would ask the seller why he thinks that way. 1 Quote
JSA Posted April 20, 2022 Author Report Posted April 20, 2022 4 hours ago, SteveM said: In particular I think the whole sword has strong similarities to the ones from Asahi Tōken… It’s not just similar, I confirm it’s the exact same sword. 4 hours ago, SteveM said: I'm not an expert in kantei, so I wouldn't make any hasty conclusions based on some guy's opinion on an internet forum. I agree and let me reassure you @SteveM; I’m grateful for your input, whatever the conclusion. You are only replying in good faith to my message and I appreciate it. I’ll definitely need to dig further into this… 1 Quote
KungFooey Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 Hi, Well I guess I just can't keep away from you guys. 😉 As some of you know, I take a daily peek at the Yahoo! Auction in Japan because I have the benefit of a brother stationed over there. Yesterday, I picked up a very long wakizashi by the same smith who is the subject of this thread. Originally, I thought it would make a nice companion piece to my first sword, a Kanbun Shinto Kunimasa but they would make a pretty weird daisho as this waki has a nagasa of 59.7 cm! Anyhow, I was searching for information on the guy and bingo - this thread has proved a real gold mine! (Whether it's 1st Gen Ichizō or 2nd Gen Denshichirō doesn't really matter to me as it's papered, looks to be in reasonable polish and cost less than $950 including postage to my brother. I love the hamon and hi - so I'm happy.) Many thanks Dee 6 4 Quote
Stephen Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 You have a good eye Miss Dee. Flattery not intended. 1 1 Quote
KungFooey Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 1 minute ago, Stephen said: You have a good eye Miss Dee. Flattery not intended. I've got two, Mr. Steven - and now I've pulled the whiny stick out of my butt, I've no further objection to flattery. 😌 3 1 Quote
Stephen Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 Glad your back Dee, ask Brian how many times I've left in a huff, even threatening to burn the place down, he probably can't not enough fingers and toes. 2 1 1 Quote
KungFooey Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 3 minutes ago, Stephen said: Glad your back Dee, ask Brian how many times I've left in a huff, even threatening to burn the place down, he probably can't not enough fingers and toes. 🤣🤣🤣 1 Quote
Brian Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 I always figure if people are meant to be here, one way or another they will stay :-) Stephen is that old couch that you keep looking at and thinking "clashes with the other furniture sometimes" but you keep realizing it's comfortable and has shared history with you, and really belong there. Great looking sword. To get a decent sword that is papered, in decent polish with nice hi for that price is a win win. Great deal, and one you'll enjoy. Congrats. 2 4 Quote
KungFooey Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 Actually @Stephen, turns out you're the go-to guy for info on this Kunishige! Help To Identify Officer's Sword - Military Swords of Japan - Nihonto Message Board 1 Quote
KungFooey Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 59 minutes ago, Brian said: I always figure if people are meant to be here, one way or another they will stay :-) Stephen is that old couch that you keep looking at and thinking "clashes with the other furniture sometimes" but you keep realizing it's comfortable and has shared history with you, and really belong there. Great looking sword. To get a decent sword that is papered, in decent polish with nice hi for that price is a win win. Great deal, and one you'll enjoy. Congrats. Thanks boss!!! I've put my toys back in the play-pen (after throwing them out) and I'm ready to play with all the other kids again. Actually, it was such a great deal that I'm real worried it will turn up at my brother's with a big bend or a king size hagire they Photoshopped out! 😳 Watch this space I guess. Love Dee 1 1 Quote
Stephen Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 Have to go change my profile and tag me is old couch lol How much Loose Change have you found in me @Brian 2 Quote
KungFooey Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 24 minutes ago, Shugyosha said: Nice blade, congratulations! Thank you John! 1 1 Quote
Brian Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 1 hour ago, Stephen said: Have to go change my profile and tag me is old couch lol How much Loose Change have you found in me @Brian The NMB Paypal account says you are actually quite a good source of spare change Wish we had a lot more old couches here on the forum, although we do manage to have some great old furniture here 1 Quote
KungFooey Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 1 hour ago, Brian said: The NMB Paypal account says you are actually quite a good source of spare change Wish we had a lot more old couches here on the forum, although we do manage to have some great old furniture here Purleeez! This sounds like it's moving into JD Vance's territory. Enough with the 'comfortable' couches already fellas and back to swords!!! 😂 1 1 Quote
Stephen Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 Miss Dee you do realize your working with a majority of Boomers.... back to the regular program, as you wish. 1 Quote
2devnul Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 17 hours ago, KungFooey said: less than $950 including postage That's a robbery! I can't say I'm happy for you (u know why) but I do envy u... Great deal, congratulations! 1 Quote
KungFooey Posted January 9 Report Posted January 9 5 hours ago, 2devnul said: That's a robbery! I can't say I'm happy for you (u know why) but I do envy u... Great deal, congratulations! Well, that's a real backhanded compliment. Thanks ... I guess. Yep, read it and weep. ⬇️ 1 1 Quote
Shugyosha Posted January 9 Report Posted January 9 I hope you can live with yourself knowing what you just did to an impoverished antiques dealer. 1 Quote
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