WW2 Japanese navy sword

[Swords]

Hi everyone am looking for opinions for this sword its Arsenal and what’s is it’s  value and smith 

[Bruce Pennington]

Steve,

I want to say "Hisamichi" but I'm usually wrong on smith mei!

 

Quite an unusual gunto.  95% of it is kaigunto, but he menugi is Army.  The finish on the saya, and dull gold gilding screams Post-war souvenir, but that blade!!! Wow.  Cannot see the stamp at the top of the nakago, is it a Tenzoshan anchor or Toyokawa?

Tenzoshan

 

Toyokawa

 

I'm wondering if it was very late war kaigunto.

[SteveM]

大道 (Daidō). Real name is Higashitani Tōkichi (東谷藤吉)

[PNSSHOGUN]

Tsuka was likely re-wrapped and incorrect Menuki added.

[Bruce Pennington]

9 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Tsuka was likely re-wrapped and incorrect Menuki added.

That would explain it, though there is clear hand oil stains on the ito.  I suppose it could have been done by a shop in the last stages of the war, with limited supplies.

[Swords]

Thanks Bruce Was it rewrapped post and 

Added a Menuki lose and the swords value?

1700 probably a little pricey especially if it was messed with 

[Swords]

Thanks guys for your help I

You mentioned these wow for the  blade ?

I would hav thought the scabbard was shark skin how can you tell post war souvenir ? 

[Bruce Pennington]

Yes, I love the hamon on it.  Even if it's oil quenched, it's still a beauty.

 

Ok.......thanks for bringing up the shark-skin saya.  I hadn't noticed that, but was simply seeing the dull sheen of the photos from a distance.  After zooming, you are right.  So, forget all I've said up to this point about the possibility of it being a post-war souvenir.  Nothing about it, with exception of the Army menugi is symptomatic of the Toyokawa souvenir. 

 

I've not followed current market prices on kaigunto.  Pre-covid, they sold around $2,400 plus or minus.  Re-wrapped tsuka are not uncommon, as many gunto came home with some really damaged ito.  The only oddity, then is the menugi.  I personally wouldn't downgrade a kaigunto much for that, as who knows if it was done post-war or simply late war.  It's a pretty piece overall.  If you're selling, I'd simply ask market price and see what counter offers come in.

 

Sorry for getting this all confusing with my mistaken souvenir saya impression!

[Bruce Pennington]

Also, would you mind posting a clear picture of the stamp you mentioned?

[Swords]

You said plus or minus 2400 it’s still oil quench? What puzzles me is that the hamon looks more traditional then oil quench unless they can look that good

But I’m no expert ethier

here’s the best picture I hav It looks almost like a seki which of course is a Arsenal stamped 

I don’t hav the sword in my hands or I would hav a better picture 

 

[reeder]

That seller is a member here. He gets good stuff. Also has good stuff for cutting and martial arts.

 

I’ve got rare naval mounts posted fs that are mint but the showato blade needs to be polished as another option to consider. 😄 

[Bruce Pennington]

Steve,

Kaigunto prices are higher than Army because they are more rare, or less common.  There's just not as many of them.  Plus they are "prettier" than the plain Army gunto.

 

Thanks for the stamp!  The large seki stamp was used by the Seki Cutlery Manufacturers' Association to mark good quality blades.  It is not know for a fact whether they are only on showato, but I believe that is the case, and higher quality showato at that.  You can read more about this in the Stamps of the Japanese Sword document.

 

A good close-up of a section of the blade, showing steel hada (grain) and hamon details might help guys give you a more educated opinion.  I'm no nihonto guy, so my opinion on that is not worth anything.

[Bruce Pennington]

@SteveM - do I have the "hisamichi" right?

 

[Stephen]

As Steven said above it Daido...which i think is a priest name I believe

[Bruce Pennington]

8 hours ago, Stephen said:

As Steven said above it Daido...which i think is a priest name I believe

DOHHH!  Trying to do too many things at once, and forgot that! Thanks Stephen!

[Kolekt-To]

Just have the tsuka re-wrapped with the appropriate Navy menuki replacing the inappropriate Army menuki. Problem solved!

[Swords]

Bruce you mentioned you mentioned it was Re-wrapped and army menugi Dose any one know if it effects value??

[Bruce Pennington]

2 minutes ago, Swords said:

if it effects value??

Steve,

Difficult to say.  As a buyer, and I was looking at your kai and a "perfect" kai with the navy menugi, I personally would chose the one with the Navy menugi, regardless of price.  But other collectors, who have different collecting goals, might not care if the price is right (cheaper).  So, in general, I could say, yes it would lower the price, but there is such a variety of buyers and what they want and why they want it.  That's why I said, earlier, that I'd set the asking price at normal market value and wait to see what offers come in.

[Swords]

kai You mean wrapping and menugi

[Bruce Pennington]

1 minute ago, Swords said:

kai You mean wrapping and menugi

"Kai" is my short-hand for "kaigunto" or Navy sword.

[John C]

On 4/17/2022 at 6:02 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

Kaigunto prices are higher than Army because they are more rare, or less common.

Bruce:

Found this old thread and it got me thinking. Without trying to be morbid, how many kai gunto do you think were lost at sea? I know roughly 300 thousand Japanese sailors and officers were lost, however I'm not sure how many would have had swords or even if swords were on the ships.

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

John,

I don't know the officer/enlisted ratio, but if you had that, you could estimate how many officers were lost.  And I don't know for a fact, but I seriously doubt any officer would have gone to duty without his sword.

[John C]

3 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I don't know the officer/enlisted ratio,

I couldn't find that either so I was hoping you might know. The answer, along with overall production numbers, may get us closer to knowing how many could exist.

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

Wiki has this on total Navy strength:

"Personnel strength
December 1941 — 291,359 including 1,500 pilots
July 1945 — 1,663,223"

 

I'll send a message to Adachi, and see if he has any idea.

[Bruce Pennington]

On 2/8/2023 at 3:39 PM, John C said:

Bruce:

Found this old thread and it got me thinking. Without trying to be morbid, how many kai gunto do you think were lost at sea? I know roughly 300 thousand Japanese sailors and officers were lost, however I'm not sure how many would have had swords or even if swords were on the ships.

John C.

Ran the question by Austin Adachi on Wehrmacht-awards.  He wrote the book RIKUSENTAI The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Japanese Naval Landing Forces 1927-1945.  Figured he would have some numbers if they could be had.  His answer:

 

 

• Hello Bruce,
  
  I'm seeing a wide range of numbers but it's said at least 155,000 IJN personnel were KIA or MIA. I'm not sure about the ratio of officers to enlisted during the war but the 1932 records state about 9.8% of the navy were officers and 9.3% by 1935. Unfortunately the records on public archives don't list these figures beyond 1935. We can make a very broad guess that the number of officers KIA in WWII was around 14k using 9.3%. I'm sure someone has done a more thorough investigation but I did not have much luck in finding anything either.
  
  Regards,
  Austin
•  

 

[John C]

3 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I'm sure someone has done a more thorough investigation but I did not have much luck in finding anything either.

Bruce:

Thank you and Austin for your efforts. Maybe I will try to research these numbers and hopefully come up with something that will add to our knowledge base. But either way, it seems as if there weren't that many swords lost relative to the production numbers.

John C.