Nanbokucho??….help please!

[Matsunoki]

George, thank you for excellent explanation and helpful image. Looking closely, I think the two at the base of the nakago are old  but the two grouped closely nearer the machi are “difficult”. The one nearest the machi is large and on one side the diameter is far bigger than the other side and it looks heavily “worked”. I’m thinking that one is drilled and badly reshaped. The smaller one next to it looks as if it has been affected by the filing work done on the large one ….if that makes sense. The rim has been brightened although the internal patina is dark.  That would further fit my theory that it had WW2 mounts….maybe. If only it could talk.

It looks like all opinions are in and the consensus seems to be “possibly Nanbokucho Yamato Shizu”. Could anyone give me an idea re it’s scarcity? So much more is known in the West about Nihonto now compared to when I had my first collection (30-35 years ago) so where does this sit in modern day thinking…..common? rare? worth polishing/shinsa? interesting ? shame about the……….

All opinions welcome,

Thanks again.

Colin

[Jacques D.]

11 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

Jacques…..Please excuse me but I do not understand. I agree the machi look crisp but surely that suggests machi-okuri rather than “suriage yesterday”?

Colin

 

 

When a sword is suriage (over than 1 or 2 cm) it's always machi-okuri too. This sword is not from Nanbokucho but probably from the 20th century, it was made to look like an old one. 

 

About mekugi ana, they are in no way a proof. i've seen punched mekugi ana perfectly circular and drilled ones which are not. 

[Matsunoki]

10 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

 

 

When a sword is suriage (over than 1 or 2 cm) it's always machi-okuri too. This sword is not from Nanbokucho but probably from the 20th century, it was made to look like an old one. 

 

About mekugi ana, they are in no way a proof. i've seen punched mekugi ana perfectly circular and drilled ones which are not. 

Jacques, that is a very bold statement. Please can you tell me the features of the blade….hada, sugata, jihada, hamon, kissaki, boshi etc that make you think 20thC?  The nakago (with all its confusion re the ana and machi) has obviously been so heavily modified that in my opinion it isn’t really much use in Kantei anyway……so we must look at the original work of the smith in the forging and tempering? However I know the condition is rather difficult…old worn polish etc.

[Baba Yaga]

Making judgement on bad lighting and poor photos is for a keyboard jockey. 

Also old, or poor polish, as in a juvenile Togi is also pragmatic.  

[Matsunoki]

Baba Yaga……I can only apologise for images. I have tried many different lightings ….natural, LED, halogen, daylight bulbs, bright, dim etc and at every possible angle…….but worn/old polish makes it nearly impossible to get good pics. There is a lot of hataraki that you can see with eye but it  simply won’t image. Very frustrating. Thank you for looking. All the best. Colin.

[Baba Yaga]

53 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Baba Yaga……I can only apologise for images. I have tried many different lightings ….natural, LED, halogen, daylight bulbs, bright, dim etc and at every possible angle…….but worn/old polish makes it nearly impossible to get good pics. There is a lot of hataraki that you can see with eye but it  simply won’t image. Very frustrating. Thank you for looking. All the best. Colin.

 

It's not your fault at all. I can't take a good photo of something to save my life. There are some people who have mastered the art of photography where you can zoom in 10x, but very few of us can.  

[Jussi Ekholm]

Here are two examples of wide Yamato Shizu with large kissaki. I should have lot more of them in books.

 

Nagasa: 71,4 cm

Moto: 3,0 cm

Saki: 2,6 cm

Kissaki: 10,5 cm

 

 

Nagasa: 64,7 cm

Moto: 3,0 cm

Saki: 2,5 cm

Kissaki: 8,0 cm

 

Regarding scarcity, shortened Nanbokuchō blades, while relatively rare are still in thousands and thousands (if that is what the sword is). They will get various attributions and some are more common than others. It is bit crazy but lot of the assumed value and rarity hangs on the attribution by experts.

[Jacques D.]

On 4/15/2022 at 8:26 AM, Matsunoki said:

Jacques, that is a very bold statement. Please can you tell me the features of the blade….hada, sugata, jihada, hamon, kissaki, boshi etc that make you think 20thC?  The nakago (with all its confusion re the ana and machi) has obviously been so heavily modified that in my opinion it isn’t really much use in Kantei anyway……so we must look at the original work of the smith in the forging and tempering? However I know the condition is rather difficult…old worn polish etc.

 

Have à look a the location of nakago shinogi on both sides, they show the sword is ubu. Compare the size of the ha machi with these on oshigatas shared by Jussy; it's why i said that sword was shortened yesterday

[Alex A]

Looking at this image at the start of the thread, nakago looks unusual to me too, for a nanbokucho blade. As in that it does not appear to have the age.

 

[Matsunoki]

3 hours ago, Alex A said:

Looking at this image at the start of the thread, nakago looks unusual to me too, for a nanbokucho blade. As in that it does not appear to have the age.

 

Alex, of course it looks to have little age. There is absolutely none of the original nakago left so looking for a Nanbokucho nakago sugata or patina is pointless. For o-suriage koto (?) blades the nakago is often of little use in Kantei especially if it has been heavily reworked/reshaped as well as suriage/machi okuri. The nakago mune is sometimes seriously altered to allow the overall new blade sugata with a new tsuka fitted to look “right” ie the tsuka fits at the desired angle. I believe this blade emerged from WW2 koshirae……anything could have been done to it at that time. The remaining blade sugata and visible forging/tempering details are far more useful in forming an opinion…..in my opinion🙂

[Matsunoki]

4 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

 

Have à look a the location of nakago shinogi on both sides, they show the sword is ubu. Compare the size of the ha machi with these on oshigatas shared by Jussy; it's why i said that sword was shortened yesterday

Jacques, thank you for your further comments. We must agree to differ. I cannot see how the size of the machi or the nakago shinogi  tells us anything when an obviously already o-suriage nakago has then later been so extensively reworked. I think there is a very good chance that this blade emerged from WW2 koshirae so indeed it could have had anything done to it then. I go back to what I said earlier….what features of the blade make you think 20thC? The sugata is appropriate for Nanbokucho o-suriage including o-kissaki and deep motohaba. The visible hamon and hada look appropriate, there are many suguha hada openings- some quite large, the boshi which is quite complex also is appropriate etc etc.  

[Alex A]

46 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Alex, of course it looks to have little age. There is absolutely none of the original nakago left so looking for a Nanbokucho nakago sugata or patina is pointless. For o-suriage koto (?) blades the nakago is often of little use in Kantei especially if it has been heavily reworked/reshaped as well as suriage/machi okuri. The nakago mune is sometimes seriously altered to allow the overall new blade sugata with a new tsuka fitted to look “right” ie the tsuka fits at the desired angle. I believe this blade emerged from WW2 koshirae……anything could have been done to it at that time. The remaining blade sugata and visible forging/tempering details are far more useful in forming an opinion…..in my opinion🙂

Hi Colin, look at other examples of shortened Nanbokucho blades, places like Aoi online museum, then compare what you see to your blade. The patina, mekugi-ana, then you will know what i am referring to.

 

Not really looked at the entire blade, just something that stood out as unusual when i first saw the image of the nakago

 

When something dont quite look right, best to be cautious 

 

Im not saying it is not Nanbokucho, not saying it is Nanbokucho,  just something that stands out as a little odd.

[Utopianarian]

Just an observation. There appears to be evidence of file patterns on the nakago. It doesn’t say much. It could have been original to the blade if ubu as stated above or added later if it was cut down and finished which I am kind of leaning away from. Hard to say without more evidence or most of all blade in hand. 

[Utopianarian]

Here is a cut down Nanbokucho blade of mine to get an idea generally of what to look for. Sorry the end is out of the photo

[Matsunoki]

Thank you all  for further comments…..I do truly appreciate your time and I respect your knowledge and expertise. What puzzles me is why we focus on a nakago that has been totally ruined by (several) reworkings. In hand it becomes a bit more obvious and my images are not great……sorry. It is  (imo) o- suriage….you can see where it was just partially chiselled and then snapped off at the jiri (sorry I didn’t image that earlier) the last time someone butchered it leaving half an ana hanging off the end. The nakago also already has two (maybe 3) different age patinas on it and the large ana is obviously drilled…..you can see where the drill chuck hit it.  All it tells me is that it tells me nothing useful ….so we default to the blade which tells us a lot more in my opinion. Similar Kiri yasurimei now cover the whole nakago but are obviously (imo) not original. There is a deep scour horizontally caused by reusing (imo) the old habaki at the last “refit” which now does not fit so snugly. My money is on the last refit being  into Gunto mounts…..reusing old habaki, nice fresh large machi, nice big ana badly drilled……but at least it still has a nakago. I’ve seen worse though🙂😖

Anyway…..it’s a good debate

[Matsunoki]

[Baba Yaga]

6 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

 

Have à look a the location of nakago shinogi on both sides, they show the sword is ubu. Compare the size of the ha machi with these on oshigatas shared by Jussy; it's why i said that sword was shortened yesterday

 That's a great example of Suriage I've never seen before.  Kind of like the optical illusion picture of the young lady, or old witch. Which do you see? 

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/510666045218753518/

[Matsunoki]

I’ve seen that image before…..it’s very clever. As for the position of the nakago shinogi…….I’m lost and confused. I’ve had a PM from Jacques…….quite insulting. Didn’t expect that on this forum.

[Alex A]

As mentioned, difficult even from good images

 

Folk often never jump in and are conservative with opinions.

 

Seen folk in past wanting all positives for a quick sale, sell it, then buyer 6 months down line buys a shinsa loser.

 

All from images, dont expect too much

[Matsunoki]

Thanks Alex. I know it’s tricky. It’s tricky even when you have sword in hand sometimes! I have no current intentions to part with this one, not because I think it’s worth a fortune (which I seriously doubt) but because it’s interesting. I was very lucky once to have a mukansa togishi visit my home when he was in the uk many many years ago. During an enjoyable evening he confided something along these lines …….”unless standing next to swordsmith when he made it we can never be absolutely certain” I remember it was said with a smile whilst looking at yet another problematic sword typical of those found  in the UK…….mistreated, rusty, been in a garden shed etc etc. 
Thanks for looking and commenting. Regards. Colin.

[Alex A]

Thats what makes it interesting Colin! Reminds me of the time someone told me we need a time machine to know what is what.