Late Kamakura period

[Henry Wilson]

Late Kamakura period?????? JPY 560,000- or US$ 5,894.00????

With a nice koshirae?????

 

What are you waiting for?????

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/katana/08744.html

[nagamaki - Franco]

Late Kamakura period?????? JPY 560,000- or US$ 5,894.00????

With a nice koshirae?????

 

What are you waiting for?????

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/katana/08744.html

 

hello Mr. Wilson, gee, Mr. Wilson, I see a heck of a lot of question marks above, but I'm not exactly certain what they indicate? You see for me it could mean that there is a lot of uncertainty about the sword and you're hoping for clarification, or it could mean you're confused as to why it hasn't yet sold, or it could mean the key on your key board keeps getting stuck in the down position, or if you're like me, sometimes I hold down a key too long when I'm busy typing and having to go real bad at the same time . signed Dennis the Menace

 

sorry Henry, please forgive, I couldn't resist.

 

Now, a few thoughts on a more serious note, as with any sword regardless of how old it is, the sword needs to be carefully evaluated thru kantei to see how it compares to an 'excellent text book level sword of the same', in this case Ko Uda. After determining if the sword's quality meets expectations, then, the koshirae should be judged separately. It also needs to be noted here that even AOI is acknowledging that a new polish is in question. Which in the mind of the potential buyer should raise the actual price to somewhere around $9000.00, plus time. Then, the question of "what are you waiting for", may be asked.

[Henry Wilson]

Hi Mr Nagamaki

 

The question marks are a bit distracting. Sorry about that. They were put in to indicate my surprised at what I think is a good price.

 

I think for a Kamakura era blade the price is excellent, regardless of the school. For what it is worth, it is papered Hozon too and the koshirae is quite nice.

 

I love old stuff and not many swords or sword items in general get the Kamakura period call. I think whether in polish or not, speaking personally I would not mind and only wish that that I had the money lying around on the floor somewhere to go down the road and buy it.

[Ted Tenold]

What are you waiting for?????

 

Same as everybody else Henry........ six matching numbers on a lottery ticket!!!!!!! (and just for emphasis...!!!!!!!!!!) :lol:

[nagamaki - Franco]

no worries, Henry, just trying to insert a little humor (very little) at both of our expense

Please keep pointing out the old stuff, my favorite too.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

What are you waiting for?????

six matching numbers on a lottery ticket!!!!!!!

 

Here in Italy with Lotto most of the time 5 are enough... :D

[Brian]

I won $1 last time. Gee, I could buy the uchiko that is wiped off it next time it is cleaned :lol:

Looking at the market lately, I really do see a change with the global economic crisis. People either seem to have no money, or lots of it. Therefore junk or really dirt cheap blades are selling, and top end stuff is selling. Mid level is battling to sell. Lots of stuff around $5K-10K still sitting, while anything under $1K flies, and the best stuff still trades in private. I think a lot of dealers are forced to lower prices to cope.

This one is a good deal, and I bet it is gone by this time next week. I see lots of Japanese dealers are expanding into the Western market, but unloading low level swords that are cheap and common in Japan.

 

Brian

[Jean]

What are you waiting for?????

 

Henry, I'll rather prefer the Muramasa tanto, and I was just waiting for your wire transfer to my bank account to buy it

 

My choice : it is less cumbersome, I have already two rooms filled with Tokuju (mostly signed Heian blades Sanjo Munechika ...) and no more room available

 

BTW, it almost April fool 's day(beware )

[Henry Wilson]

That Muramasa tanto has a "boomerang" thing going on. It keeps coming back. Was it not sold about two weeks ago?

[Jean]

It disappeard and then reappeared without being put on hold/sold- there was also a Norihisa blade which could be sold with or without the koshirae which did the same, It disappeard and then reappeared and re-disappeared again without being put on hold/sold-.

[DirkO]

Probably someone put in on hold and failed to pay the deposit in time ? Or decided not to buy after all ?

[pcfarrar]

That Muramasa tanto has a "boomerang" thing going on. It keeps coming back. Was it not sold about two weeks ago?

 

Not suprising its massively over priced. You'd have more chance of selling sand in the Sahara.

[reinhard]

I think for a Kamakura era blade the price is excellent, regardless of the school.

 

Henry,

 

"Kamakura era blade" is not a quality label per se. Percentage of great masters was very high at that time, but not every ToKo was a genius. - Focussing on Ko-Uda school, it is said to be founded by Ko-nyudo KUNIMITSU, whose work is poorly documented and remains slightly mysterious. His famous son KUNIFUSA was THE outstanding representative of Ko-Uda school. KUNIFUSA's oldest, dated blade was made in 1389 (though some of his undated works have a slightly older appearance ). Hence KUNIMITSU can be placed at the very end of Kamakura-/early Nambokucho-period. - Focussing on the sword in question: nagasa of 66+cm is at the short end when looking at an o-suriage tachi, attribution is vague and apart from KUNIFUSA, Ko-Uda is not very much sought after. After all, this is a fair offer but no bargain.

 

reinhard

[Stever]

Not suprising its massively over priced. You'd have more chance of selling sand in the Sahara.

 

Hi Peter, could you explain why you feel it's massively overpriced? Honest question; I'm genuinely interested in hearing your explanation.

 

I wonder if some items disappear from the site to get polished? Just a thought.

 

thanks,

/steve

[nihonto1001]

It disappeard and then reappeared without being put on hold/sold- there was also a Norihisa blade which could be sold with or without the koshirae which did the same, It disappeard and then reappeared and re-disappeared again without being put on hold/sold-.

 

Strange, maybe the work of the Tokugawa?

 

Jon

[Ted Tenold]

Age doesn't necessarily dictate quality. I've seen some really *really* nice Uda swords. Then again, I've seen others that would be a fair cure for insomnia. For a Koto sword, in okay polish, mounted, and papered, I think it's a fair price and a good starter blade. Then again....the currency of your national origin could change that rapidly (and daily :lol: ) too.

 

As for Muramasa? To each their own I guess, but I've never been a big fan. Seen a fair number in hand and studied them accordingly, but I wouldn't run out looking for one to add to my collection. They always seem to command a big price, bigger than I'd pay considering the options I'd have in the price catagory. That's just me though. The privelidge of owning something "forbidden" has a premium attached. I'd rather have a nice Heianjyo Nagayoshi.

[John A Stuart]

There was a great exhibition at the Sano museum of Muramasa swords among others. Some were very good and desirous. Ted, I don't think they are too cursed unless you have Tokugawa blood in your veins. It does add a certain mystique though. Oooooo. Scary. John

[pcfarrar]

could you explain why you feel it's massively overpriced? Honest question; I'm genuinely interested in hearing your explanation.

 

A papered nidai murmasa tanto sold on a US website last year for a mere fraction of the price Aoi are asking. I'm pretty sure if you searched around you could find one for half that price. Aoi do seem to have greatly increased their prices as of late, I wonder if they aren't doing so well in the current economic climate?

 

If you wanted something with a good background you could always buy the sword Takeda Shingen gave as a gift to one of his top retainers:

 

http://www.e-sword.jp/sale/2009/0910_2013syousai.htm

[Stever]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I haven't delved that deeply into Muramasa school yet, but it looks pretty nice with interesting activity (I especially like that boshi, and the ji nie that seems to coalesce almost into muneyaki at one spot) and there don't seem to be a lot of pieces changing hands so I guess I wasn't surprised the price was high. I think Ted's nailed it as well with the 'mystique' aspect of Muramasa blades. I wouldn't doubt many sellers (and buyers) put a premium on them for this reason.

 

Interesting info about the papered Nidai sale. I guess I'll have to keep my eyes more open. The Bungo Tomoyuki in that link is interesting, though the shape doesn't 'do it' for me. It wouldn't be a bad thing to have an item with a (documented) history to it, but definitely not the primary concern.

 

John, do you know if Sano did a catalogue of that exhibit? Do they do this exhibit often?

 

cheers,

/steve

[John A Stuart]

Hi Steve, No, they didn't make one up. I even tried to get a CD/DVD copy of the exhibition that was available on monitors, but, the girl attendant wasn't forthcoming and there was no curator there that particular time to brace for a copy. A real shame. Most are documented in other publications, just not as convenient. John

[reinhard]

I even tried to get a CD/DVD copy of the exhibition that was available on monitors, but, the girl attendant wasn't forthcoming and there was no curator there that particular time to brace for a copy. A real shame. Most are documented in other publications, just not as convenient.

 

Many of the western visitors tried to get a copy, I was told, but with all respect: This is a silly attitude. A lot of time and (professional) knowledge was put into this exhibition and its visual display. Expecting to get this highly advanced product just like that for the price of any CD/DVD-ROM is a little naive. It would have been ripped and spread all over the place by now. Japan is a hi-tec nation and the charming lady responsible for this project is by no means naive. (I had the pleasure of meeting her)

 

As for MURAMASA: I agree with Ted and the exhibition at the Sano Bijutsukan showed it clearly: MURAMASA-smiths didn't belong to the top-league of sword-makers in Japan and their fame doesn't depend on their works so much as on the myth surrounding them. They are no match at all for Shintogo KUNIMITSU, YUKIMITSU, MASAMUNE or SADAMUNE displayed in the same room; not even for top-class Sue-Soshu masters like HIROMITSU and AKIHIRO a few yards away.

 

reinhard

[John A Stuart]

I am sorry Reinhard, but, no way. The dissemination of knowledge is never silly and having a photographic record of any exhibition can only help rather than hinder the better understanding of our subject matter. I agree about the copyright issue and the pics could be watermarked, however how would legitimate use of them be harmful? Some of our best resources are exhibition catalogues. In this I must respectfully disagree. In the past it was hard to get the information that is coming to us now, like these lectures and monographs on kantei points that were hidden knowledge before. I don't want to see the cork stoppering the bottle again. John

 

Oh, I just wanted to add, when I attended the Ichimonji exhibition there were very high tech video available. The curator, Sakamoto Masahiko sama, was very public oriented and greeted our group and shared all kinds of information on the exhibit. That's what it is all about, sharing. J

[reinhard]

That's what it is all about, sharing. J

 

That's what the better (idealistic) part of us is here for, but since we're scratching copyrights all the time and some minor subjects are taking advantage of this, I have full understanding for those providing informations only with a reserve. - Furthermore I like the idea of "no pain-no gain". "Convenience" and "getting all there is to know online" is definitely beyond understanding NihonTo.

BTW: "swordsmiths along the Tokkai-do" was a minor exhibition and publishing a catalogue was probably not within financial limits anymore.

 

reinhard

[Jean]

They are no match at all for Shintogo KUNIMITSU, YUKIMITSU, MASAMUNE or SADAMUNE displayed in the same room; not even for top-class Sue-Soshu masters like HIROMITSU and AKIHIRO a few yards away.

 

 

Let's compare Muramasa school with true late Soshu/Mino leading smiths meaning Muramasa/Tsunahiro/Kanesada/Kanemot. It is unfair to compare 16th century swordsmiths to 14th century ones

[reinhard]

Jean,

It's like Ted said: Age doesn't necessarily dictate quality. Some of late Kamakura/Nambokucho period swords are inferior to the better works of Ise Sengo school. I was just stressing the fact, that seeing MASAMUNE and MURAMASA almost side by side (as it was in this particular exhibition) the deviation in quality is stunning. This should be considered by all people still thrilled by the popular myth of "sinister MURAMASA" and his "bloodthirsty" swords being almost equal to MASAMUNE('s). Sengo work is not even close.

 

reinhard

[Jean]

Reinhard,

 

I do not at all contest the fact; what I was just stressing is that it is a general trend of sue Koto: comparing Nie in first Soshu masters and Tsunahiro turning nioi, same with sue Bizen smiths compare to Kamakura or Nao Shizu with Sue Seki.

[Stever]

Nicely stated, Jean. Everything must be kept in perspective.

 

cheers,

/steve