Rock Island Auctions

[Bruce Pennington]

I know I've mentioned them at least once before, but I put this out to warn prospective Newbie buyers - all 5 of these swords are fakes.  R.I. uses the term "Style" in their titles to avoid returns for false advertising.  They can have some really good stuff, but they are rife with fakes too, and don't mind selling them.  You WILL NOT get a refund.  I know from experience after getting burned once.

 

'

Description:

Five Japanese Style Swords

Group of 5 Japanese swords 1) Katana style sword with scabbard. Habaki marked with "GG881". Grip as a whole is loose. 39 1/2" OAL with a 27 1/2" blade. 2) Katana style sword with scabbard. Wooden dowel for grip is partially missing. Kashira loose. 40" OAL with a 27 1/4" blade. 3) Katana Type 95 style sword and leather wrapped scabbard. Blade is numbered "45485"with additional Japanese characters. Arsenal style markings on the grip. 34 1/2" OAL with a 26" blade length. 4) Katana Type 95 style sword with leather wrapped scabbard. Blade is numbered "76118" with additional Japanese characters on the blade. Arsenal marking partially rubbed off the handle. Consignor states sword is a NCO sword for someone in the signal corps. 33 3/4" OAL with a 25 1/4" blade. 5) Katana style sword with leather wrapped scabbard. Habaki numbered "7995523". 34 1/4" OAL with a 25" blade length.

 

Note sword 1 - serial number on kaigunto habaki!!! Both 1 & 2 have the classic Chinese angle kissaki.  Both 3 & 4 are supposed to be Type 95, but even in the lousy photo they are clearly fake.  Item 5 is an obvious Chinese fake of a Type 98.

 

Edit: just found a second lot of 5 that are worse: Japanese STYLE Swords

[Brian]

We have a member here that works for RIA. I wouldn't say beware of them, they are a great auction house and sell some of the finest arms and armor available.
BUT...buyers need to read carefully and know something before spending their money.
I agree, there are a few too many "Japanese swords" in that description and they need to emphasize that they are fakes. But they DO say it, and anyone knowing the subject should spot this.
Let's see if we can find the member who works there.

[PNSSHOGUN]

@tbonesullivan works with IMA from memory.

[tbonesullivan]

13 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

@tbonesullivan works with IMA from memory.

 

Yes, and there's only one time one of our buyers managed to get a fake Type 95 to me, which was years ago, before I knew how to spot them.  IMA has a lifetime Authenticity Policy now as well. We're well aware of the damage that fakes due to reputations and the market.  We generally do not get swords from auction houses. Most are from private sales or other dealers.

[Brian]

David....let me know when IMA needs another gun expert. I need to move to USA

[PNSSHOGUN]

Yep, there was a good video interview with the IMA owner about refunding a client after it was found a fake had been sold. So it is baffling that a big & prestigious auction house like RIA doesn't have proper experts. 

[Stephen]

RIA dont out right call them real. 

What do you expect a auction house to do?

[tbonesullivan]

15 minutes ago, Brian said:

David....let me know when IMA needs another gun expert. I need to move to USA

HAH!  We actually have an intern right now from the Netherlands, part of his university education I believe. He's working with the gunsmiths right now.

 

We actually just did get in a pretty exceptional gun for this weekend. A Massachusetts Arms Company Wesson & Leavitt Patent Dragoon Model Percussion Revolver. Serial number FOUR. Yes, FOUR. Only 800 were made. I couldn't figure out why it had a 6 1/4" long barrel instead of the usual 7". Then I found a reference to Flayderman where the first 30 apparently had 6 1/4 inch barrels.

 

Of note is that most people think the "wesson patent" refers to Daniel Wesson, but it was in fact his older brother and mentor Edwin Wesson, who died at the young age of 38 in 1849.

[DRDave]

There's always some incredible firearms coming through RIA.  Makes me  wonder what might be changing hands privately that doesn't get listed.

[MarcoUdin]

1 hour ago, tbonesullivan said:

 

  IMA has a lifetime Authenticity Policy now as well.

Good to know, been eyeing that MVSN poignard for a while.

[sbf]

Yes, Rock Island has some nice things, but an auction house that values it's reputation should not deal in fakes, whether they correctly identify them out or not. The best weapon auctions I ever attended were also the earliest, Richard Bourne auctions in the late 1970s - early 1980s. He was the first auction house that brought guns into mainstream auctions, and for some years he was the only one. Others saw there was money to be made and jumped on the bandwagon, but he was the first. He charged no buyer's premium and guaranteed his descriptions. We sure don't see that anymore! No reserves, but he made clear he wasn't going to let a $2500 gun sell for $250.  He primarily sold antique and collectible arms. He had some VERY nice weapons, including Japanese swords run through his fingers.

He was also an outstanding auctioneer. He worked the audience like a fisherman casting his lure into a school of bluefish. Then he would reel them in, not with deception but with style.  He could make you want to bid on a gun you had never thought of owning. He also ran a tight ship. In the middle of an auction, one of his sons approached the podium and whispered in his ear. Bourne said "I have just been informed one of our consignors is bidding on his own items. We do not conduct business that way and will never do business with that individual again". A few minutes later his son returned and handed him a piece of paper. Bourne read a list of numbers and said these items were withdrawn.

Ultimately, he ended up having unfortunate personal issues, and that combined with increasing competition caused his demise. But in his heyday he was in a class by himself, and I am grateful for the many fond memories. I have been to many other arms auctions since, but none had near the class, style, and sheer entertainment of a Bourne auction. 

 

Steve

 

[Brian]

3 hours ago, MarcoUdin said:

Good to know, been eyeing that MVSN poignard for a while.

Which model? I have a mint stunning one with hanger.

[MarcoUdin]

9 minutes ago, Brian said:

Which model? I have a mint stunning one with hanger.

I'll pm you

[tbonesullivan]

5 hours ago, DRDave said:

There's always some incredible firearms coming through RIA.  Makes me  wonder what might be changing hands privately that doesn't get listed.

TONS. Lots of military and gun shows happen all the time, and there are also VERY active forums for gun collectors, both modern and antique. There are also several purveyors of high end antique firearms which I've met over the years. The things they have are amazing, and there are lots of them that never get posted, as their clientele gets first refusal.

[Tensho]

RIA has been viewed as caveat emptor on their online auctions in the gun industry. Their premier auctions(high end/mueseum quality pieces) are a completely different story and come with a guarantee. So what does that tell you? 

 

But like any auctions, I tend to avoid what the seller(s) write in the listing and view the items and judge for myself. 

[Brian]

I edited the title to remove the 'beware' as I personally feel there is no more to beware than at any other auction. These are all listed as repros if you read it.
And any future issues anyone has...well we have a rep on the board now.

[Bruce Pennington]

5 hours ago, Brian said:

These are all listed as repros

I like the title change, but an curious about your "repro" description?  I was looking at both lots with 5 "Japanese Style Swords".  I know what that term means NOW after getting burned, but to a novice, I didn't know what they were doing with the word "style."  At the time, my mind said "All Japanese swords are Japanese style."  It sounded like a term used by someone who didn't know what they were talking about concerning swords.  It was only after I wanted to return the fake that was embedded with 3 other legit swords, that they explained the sly purpose of the word.  The lot of 4 I had bought did have 3 legit gunto, with the 1 fake in among them.  So, with their label, they WERE calling even the legit swords "Japanese Style."  That is intentional deception, my friend.  Using the word to avoid having to face returns and refunds.  Not nice.

[Baba Yaga]

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I like the title change, but an curious about your "repro" description?  I was looking at both lots with 5 "Japanese Style Swords".  I know what that term means NOW after getting burned, but to a novice, I didn't know what they were doing with the word "style."  At the time, my mind said "All Japanese swords are Japanese style."  It sounded like a term used by someone who didn't know what they were talking about concerning swords.  It was only after I wanted to return the fake that was embedded with 3 other legit swords, that they explained the sly purpose of the word.  The lot of 4 I had bought did have 3 legit gunto, with the 1 fake in among them.  So, with their label, they WERE calling even the legit swords "Japanese Style."  That is intentional deception, my friend.  Using the word to avoid having to face returns and refunds.  Not nice.

Yep, Global Warming turned into Climate Change.  We became wordsmithing for profit and liability. Something simple can be turned into waving your rights. 

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, Baba Yaga said:

Something simple can be turned into waving your rights

This is what used to bug me with difficult conversations on Izakaya.  But our reality, here at NMB, is that this is actually a benevolent autocracy.  While we are respected, we have no actual rights.  I’ve gotten used to it and accept it now and don’t envy Brian‘s position as head Marshal trying to keep the peace.

 

Love ya, Brian!
 

 

[Brian]

To me, Japanese style is very clear.
Does it help if it has a hyphen? Japanese-style swords. Definitely not genuine. I guess many of us grew up with 'auction-speak'
For example, if you see a sword described as "signed after xxxx" then you know it is gimei. "Signed by xxx" means it should be ok. Just "signed xxxx" means they assume it's gimei.
 

[Baba Yaga]

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

This is what used to bug me with difficult conversations on Izakaya.  But our reality, here at NMB, is that this is actually a benevolent autocracy.  While we are respected, we have no actual rights.  I’ve gotten used to it and accept it now and don’t envy Brian‘s position as head Marshal trying to keep the peace.

 

Love ya, Brian!
 

 

I could of been the ghost writer ( I'm not) for this article as it was the exactly did. It was also the exact way I leaned 25 years ago. Actually, I remember when this person started and the warnings I suggested . https://blog.yuhindo.com/dont-bother-it-has-no-boshi/ 

I learned not to warn people anymore, it's not worth the backlash. Brian has a very difficult job indeed! 

[Bazza]

7 hours ago, Brian said:

To me, Japanese style is very clear.
Does it help if it has a hyphen? Japanese-style swords. Definitely not genuine. I guess many of us grew up with 'auction-speak'
For example, if you see a sword described as "signed after xxxx" then you know it is gimei. "Signed by xxx" means it should be ok. Just "signed xxxx" means they assume it's gimei.
 

Agreed 'Japanese style' has a clear meaning of 'not genuine'.  "Inscribed" is a word I have used in descriptions...  But one has to have experience in the field of descriptions and a decent exposure to what makes a sword's quality what it is to be aware of the pitfalls.

 

BaZZa.

[Bruce Pennington]

5 hours ago, Bazza said:

But one has to have experience

Exactly.  Unlike Brian, I had never spent any time in the auction world.  I reckon it's like we tell rookies about fleabay - get educated before you dive in.  Seems the same advice is applicable to the auction world too. 

Oh well, I've learned from it.  Sad though, as others will learn the hard way too.  That first lot I posted is already over $1,000 for 5 fakes.

[Stephen]

Many moons ago I was selling swords at gun shows. 

A fellow and that is speaking nicely of him was selling those $185 Japanese swords you see on eBay... Etched hamon and all.

What he was selling them for was about five markup. I watched one guy go to the ATM machine and pull out more than a few hundreds go back to his table.

He made his deal and I caught up with him going out the door and told him I said you're not buying real Japanese sword.

The crushed look across his face you would have thought I said there's no Santa Claus Easter Bunny or the magic pumpkin.

I learned then and there let them learn the hard way, someday he'll go to sell it and the lesson will stick a lot harder.

[Baba Yaga]

10 hours ago, Stephen said:

The crushed look across his face you would have thought I said there's no Santa Claus Easter Bunny or the magic pumpkin.

I learned then and there let them learn the hard way, someday he'll go to sell it and the lesson will stick a lot harder.

 

Exactly, that same person will think you're the devil himself. The blowback is incredible, no good deed goes unpunished.  Try doing that with a real Nihonto that some dealer "offloaded" to an unsuspecting novice publicly an see what happens. It's better to give no opinion publicly, than a bad one "unfortunately"