reinhard Posted March 20, 2009 Report Posted March 20, 2009 Since the topic of gi-mei raised some interest lately, I would like to give you another example to sharpen your claws on. You may have heard of Kajibei before, the "lazy genius", as he was called by Darcy. Capable of copying workmanship of top-class ShinTo masters, he often left a tiny "catch me if you can"-mark within his mei. Again, this is a pic from Menome magazine (please don't spoil the fun, if you know the answer) and it is not a question of workmanship. Kajibei was able to fool experts and scholars at his time. Nagasone KOTETSU was one of his favourite "victims". reinhard Quote
John A Stuart Posted March 21, 2009 Report Posted March 21, 2009 I think the little signal flag is in the second kanji '-sone'. The TV stand holding the TV. The box has the middle horizontal stroke too far from the middle. Only one Kotetsu signature have I seen a little off the middle , but, none as far out as the left hand pic. John Quote
Brian Posted March 21, 2009 Report Posted March 21, 2009 Could it be the length and extent of the left hand stroke/stroke count? Quote
Jacques Posted March 21, 2009 Report Posted March 21, 2009 Hi, To my old eyes, the right mei is soshin ; it seems older and the atari in the left corner of the left stroke in the ji 道 is really different (too long in the left mei). Quote
Eric H Posted March 21, 2009 Report Posted March 21, 2009 Is it a rule that the left pic is gimei, whereas the right one is shoshin ? How tricky is Reinhard It's very difficult to find out what's genuine. Okisato has changed characters in style and form many times during his career, and his work was extensively forged. I think the left one is gimei. The horizontal strokes in "Oki" and "Sato" have a tendency to go slightly upside right, whereas on the other pic the overall appearance is well balanced. The undermost stroke of "Do" is a unnatural straight line when compared to the one on the opposite. Anyway a challenging excercise regardless of it's outcome. Eric Quote
GregD Posted March 21, 2009 Report Posted March 21, 2009 bottom character,right side leg is crossed differently Quote
Jacques Posted March 21, 2009 Report Posted March 21, 2009 Hi, I checked my books and i would change my attitude about this mei; I think the right one is gimei. The square in the ji tetsu is always perfectly closed on shoshin mei. The upper oblique stroke in the ji Ko is always first engraved. It is not the case on the right mei. Quote
Eric H Posted March 21, 2009 Report Posted March 21, 2009 Supposed this is a fake by Kajibei and there is a tiny, tiny mark, I'd like to point to the Kanji "Do". Upmost, the first horizontal stroke should be cut by the slant stroke as is clearly seen on the right side. Provided that the right one is shoshin. Eric Quote
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted March 21, 2009 Report Posted March 21, 2009 IMHO, John is right (first answer given in the topic). Quote
Jacques Posted March 21, 2009 Report Posted March 21, 2009 John A Stuart said: I think the little signal flag is in the second kanji '-sone'. The TV stand holding the TV. The box has the middle horizontal stroke too far from the middle. Only one Kotetsu signature have I seen a little off the middle , but, none as far out as the left hand pic. John I don't think it is a good key. Quote
Brian Posted March 21, 2009 Report Posted March 21, 2009 I assume the 2 that Jacques posted are confirmed shoshin, so this should help to compare. The ones I circled are the stokes mentioned by John. If there are shoshin mei with it centered, then I guess that isn't it. But easier to compare with the 4 mei now. I have a feeling that Nihonto Koza has the answer to this, but haven't looked it up yet. Did he do a stroke going in the wrong direction maybe? Brian ETA: Going back to that first one I circled, Kotetsu does seem to have done that kanji with a left hand vertical line going down. On the right hand example...it does appear to have been done in an "L" shape without the continuation downwards. Could that be it? Quote
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted March 21, 2009 Report Posted March 21, 2009 Jacques D. said: I don't think it is a good key. Right, missed to check the "Kotetsu and Kiyomaro" catalogue. Quote
John A Stuart Posted March 21, 2009 Report Posted March 21, 2009 Yes, I have found a few off centre. Here are a few for reference you all mightn't have. I have more if requested. John Quote
John A Stuart Posted March 21, 2009 Report Posted March 21, 2009 Brian, I guess these can be deleted after whomever wants them has copied them. John Quote
reinhard Posted March 22, 2009 Author Report Posted March 22, 2009 Eric H said: How tricky is Reinhard Not as tricky as Kajibei. All guesses missed the important spot so far, but you are all in good company. Kajibei became a legend for a reason. - Again, scanning libraries can be part of the game, but they are not always at hand. What do you do, when suddenly confronted with one of the two examples? And don't tell me about workmanship in this particular case. Even KOTETSU's genuine works oscillate between top-class and....not so top-class. reinhard Quote
reinhard Posted March 22, 2009 Author Report Posted March 22, 2009 John A Stuart said: I think the little signal flag is in the second kanji '-sone'. The TV stand holding the TV. (Naga)SONE is in no way related to SONY . reinhard Quote
John A Stuart Posted March 22, 2009 Report Posted March 22, 2009 :lol: No I can't spot it so far. Maybe some more will help others. john I have just changed these from GIF to JPEG, so it may be easier to download. John Quote
John A Stuart Posted March 22, 2009 Report Posted March 22, 2009 The more I look the closer they seem to be, with small differences, I am now starting to imagine things, even coming to think they are both gimei. John Quote
Eric H Posted March 22, 2009 Report Posted March 22, 2009 Reinhard wrote : he often left a tiny "catch me if you can"-mark within his mei Once again I have overlooked Okisato Oshigata's. One stroke in "Sato" attracted my attention, the next over the final horizontal stroke, this runs parallel to the final stroke but not to the upper stroke. I have discovered in the mentioned Oshigata's that the tree horizontal strokes run without exception parallel to each other. John A. Stuart suspects both to be gimei. I don't think so, there must be a test example and a valid example. Eric Quote
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted March 22, 2009 Report Posted March 22, 2009 Second and last try, promised. Here looks upsidedown to me, but might be challinging my daughter in mountainbike is beginning too hard to me : .jpg] Quote
Eric H Posted March 22, 2009 Report Posted March 22, 2009 Carlo I think you have finally detected that mystic tiny mark. Eric Quote
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted March 22, 2009 Report Posted March 22, 2009 Eric, if you knew me a little you wouldn't be so optimist :lol: Quote
Jacques Posted March 22, 2009 Report Posted March 22, 2009 Hi, I think you hit the nail on the head. Quote
reinhard Posted March 22, 2009 Author Report Posted March 22, 2009 OK, here's the solution: The oshigata on the left is depicting KOTETSU's shoshin-mei. The pic on the right shows a "KOTETSU"-gimei by Kajibei. According to Tanobe-san, it is a tiny detail in the kanji "OKI" that makes the difference. Its last (16th) stroke has to be either straight or slightly curving upwards to be genuine KOTETSU. If it is "hanging down", it is Kajibei's gimei. The pic attached shows a shoshin example. You can forget all the rest. - This comparison is a text-book example for superb forgery and a good reminder of our limited knowledge. A library, no matter how extensive and carefully studied, is not the key to all questions. Anyway, thank you all for playing. reinhard Quote
John A Stuart Posted March 22, 2009 Report Posted March 22, 2009 Lordy, I have been going blind trying to figure it out. Wow, a very small flag to spot. John Quote
Ted Tenold Posted March 23, 2009 Report Posted March 23, 2009 Thanks for posting this exercise Reinhard. It was enjoyable to see all the different thoughts on these. I sat on the sidelines as these were also covered in a lecture Tanobe-sensei gave at the Tampa Florida show a few years back, and these exact points are illustrated in a book from that lecture. Good efforts and thoughts from everyone though. It certainly does have a way of challenging the approaches to judgements! Quote
Eric H Posted March 23, 2009 Report Posted March 23, 2009 Hi Reinhard All duped due to a very minute almost not noticeable variation onf one strocke Did Kajibei really make this on purpose ? The motif for forgery is mostly monetary gain, i.e. the fake should not be detected. A good lesson about Kotetsu mei and Kajibei. Eric Quote
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted March 23, 2009 Report Posted March 23, 2009 Next time we'll call CSI... :D Fantastic... Quote
Stever Posted March 23, 2009 Report Posted March 23, 2009 Ok, here's a really stupid question for you: If Kajibei was "capable of copying workmanship of top-class ShinTo masters", and could perfectly copy their signatures as well, doesn't this immediately make him a master himself? Why the concern about gimei, if the workmanship is the same and so is the signature? cheers, /steve Quote
Jean Posted March 23, 2009 Report Posted March 23, 2009 A master copyist only. Art entails creativity. A good faker is not considered as an artist because he lacks creativity and inventiveness. He is unable to create his own style only copy others. Quote
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