Is it just a typical BIZEN OSAFUNE? Or something more?

[Bijouxneko]

Hello, I was wondering if anyone might want to offer their opinion on this sword I have. I have talked with some different people about it and I have received a large range of possibilities. The sword is suriage and the blade is 67.7 cm in length. Some have suggested, that it might be the work of Osafune Katsumitsu, Kiyomitsu or Sukesada. However, the hamon has elements of kataochi gunome which might attribute it to either Aoe, Motoshige or Unji. Is it possible this sword was forged in the Nanbokucho or Enbun era? If anyone wants to share their thoughts on this I would greatly appreciate it. All the best everyone! Please let me know if you require additional photos.

 

Thanks everyone,

 

Justin

[Brian]

Justin,

Please don't post the same question twice in different sections. If replies take some time, it is because online kantei is very difficult, and many can't say very much without taking complete guesses. Hopefully someone will take a stab at it, but it takes time for the right guys to pop round and commit to an answer.

 

Brian

[Brian]

One thing that does strike me...is this o-suriage, or just slightly suriage?

Is there any sign of where the machi were originally? I say this because there is no sign of the lower mekugi ana, and if it was off the bottom somewhere, that would have made this a monster of a blade. Possibly this is the original ana, and the blade is just slightly suriage?

You would have to examine the blade carefully for signs that the machi were moved.

That patina stops awfully abruptly too..even if it were polished to there. Almost like the patina was done a bit later? If o-suriage to that extent, then the sugata is going to be misleading and not easy to date based on that.

 

Brian

[Bijouxneko]

One thing that does strike me...is this o-suriage, or just slightly suriage?

Is there any sign of where the machi were originally? I say this because there is no sign of the lower mekugi ana, and if it was off the bottom somewhere, that would have made this a monster of a blade. Possibly this is the original ana, and the blade is just slightly suriage?

You would have to examine the blade carefully for signs that the machi were moved.

That patina stops awfully abruptly too..even if it were polished to there. Almost like the patina was done a bit later? If o-suriage to that extent, then the sugata is going to be misleading and not easy to date based on that.

 

Brian

 

Brian,

 

Hello, thank you very much for your reply and information. Yes, you are probably right about it being only slightly suriage because I don't think the machi was moved at all. One question I did have for you was what you meant by "that patina stops awefully abruptly too....even if it were polished to there. Almost like the patina was done a bit later?" What patina are you talking about here? Thanks again Brian so based on what you said do you think it is just a typical Muromachi Bizen blade?

 

All the best,

 

Justin

[pcfarrar]

Thanks again Brian so based on what you said do you think it is just a typical Muromachi Bizen blade?

 

It might just be your photos but it looks more shin shinto to me.

[Ted Tenold]

Justin,

 

It really is difficult to say from images sometimes. Just to poke at the images I would say this;

 

Looks Osuriage to me with the nakago elluding to some koshizori. The yakiba does look to extend past the machi and into the nakago supporting the fact the sword has been shortened to some extent. The nakago patina is wrong and looks contrived, with the very edge of the sabigawa (rust border) showing kiri yasuri and then some filing strokes angling off into the habakimoto (area the habaki occupies). This tells me the blade was somewhat recently shortened or modified and the rust installed to age it. But this rust is very "caked" and inorganic looking giving an impression of being very forced and accelerated. The end of the nakago has a little extension at the mune side. This appears to be a remnant of having been partially sawn through then snapped off.

 

The hamon is Bizen inspired and has some few square cut gunome which harken back to the Kamakura period, however there is no utsuri visable from the images and the hada is also unable to be conclusively identified, which could be the product of conditional issues, the state of polish, or the polishing method used. The appearance of the polish is suspiciously odd to me and may have involved a mild etchant.

 

All this really hinders the ability to make confident assessments of your sword. In hand it might be more obvious or conclusive, but even in hand because of the shape, state of polish, and condition of nakago you might get ten different answers from ten different people.

[Bijouxneko]

Ted,

 

Hello, thank you very much for the posting and sharing your thoughts. I was just wondering if you could elaborate a little more about the nakago. Some people have voiced concerns about this and I am left wondering if it has been created to deceive? The blade appears to be pretty good, but the main issues seem to stem from the nakago which makes things very difficult. I will take some pictures of the blade to try and show the hada as well as the utsuri so maybe this might bring some new ideas to you and others out there. Thanks again Ted for your reply and hopefully talk with you soon.

 

All the best,

 

Justin

[Guido]

My best guess is that a Gimei was removed, and the re-patination didn't work out well.

[loui]

I am pretty sure I see remnants of a removed signature, strikes here and there that have been pushed in. Look closely at the nakago. Also, does the nakago smell like a chemical?

 

I believe as well that a mei was removed and some hardcore acid aging was incorporated.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Louis

[Ted Tenold]

Agreed, but that little nubby bit at the end of the nakago still suggests damage or shortening, or both.

 

Maybe a bad Saidan mei or Zogan mei was removed, either of which would require some major reworking. That would help explain the filing, the surface texturing, and the crusty nature of the patina.

 

Just thoughts. Truth is, without having it in hand we can only take it for what is obvious and that it has been reworked to some degree whether more or less.

[loui]

Lots of tricks eh. I am curious as to why someone would go through all that work or removing a mei, filing, acid etching, aging, and then leave a little nub on the end of a nakago after cutting it off. Red herring?? That part doesnt make sense to me. But I can see where you say the temper runs back and up the nakago. Maybe an alteration on top of an alteration etc etc . Reminds me of fighting a fire at an old farm house, we often cut a hole in the roof to find it was an addition put on the the 1970's, then go through that one and find there was another addition in the 20's. But finally we get to the root of the fire.

 

I'm always amazed at the lengths people go through to "modify" a Japanese sword.

 

Louis

[Kevin]

A suggestion, based on the nubby bit. Some WW2 soldiers sawed the end off the nakago of a bring-back sword in order to fit in their kitbag. Could the problems with the nakago result from someone trying to correct the work of a Pacific war veteran?

 

Kevin

[Mark Green]

Hi Gang,

Looks to me like another fine sword that has been 'Suriaged'.

Good looking sword though Justin. I would just love it for what it is.

jmho

Mark G

[Bijouxneko]

Hello,

 

Thank you very much everyone for posting such thoughtful comments about the nakago. All of these suggestions seem to make sense. I always had doubts about the nakago but the quality of the blade seemed to be worth it. I was just wondering if this sword was forged recently or if it was a situation where a long time ago a fake mei was added which someone recently realized and then tried to cover it up? The idea of a WWII soldier modifying it is also possible. Either way, like Mark Green said it is a beautiful sword in my eyes and I will try to care for it for what it is. I am just still trying to determine exactly what "it is" because it seems that this swords has a few secrets or has certainly been through some alterations. My first thought was that it is a Bizen Osafune blade, but a few others have gone either earlier or much later, like shin shinto. Ohh the heartache of swords sometimes. I was just curious, would any of you bother trying to get this sword judged? Do you think it is worth it? Thanks again for you comments and all the best.

 

Regards,

 

Justin

[Ted Tenold]

Submitting it to a shinsa would be possible and a good for getting a qualified opinion on the blade. I would highly recommend that the nakago and polish get corrected before doing it, and that means and investment in money and time.