Old blade ?

[Chrometank]

Hello, I just bought two WW2 swords at a large recent auction in Australia, when I posted them in the WW2 section it was suggested by one of the forum members that the blades could possibly be older. No writing on the tang. I would appreciate any feedback you could give me regarding this blade 

Thanks in advance 

Paul

[Chrometank]

I struggle to photograph the blade without reflections etc 

[Chrometank]

[Chrometank]

[Rivkin]

Boshi needs to be shown. there are a few options - Muromachi Bizen Tembun jidai is somewhat problematic because we don't see crab claws and sugata is very straight.

Bizen Okayama Sukekane or related school so far appears to be a good match. They did clusters of very roundish choji. Very distinctive features is that sometimes these choji on the opposite sides of the cluster point slightly in opposite directions. If you find such choji - that's Sukekane.

[Chrometank]

24 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

Boshi needs to be shown. there are a few options - Muromachi Bizen Tembun jidai is somewhat problematic because we don't see crab claws and sugata is very straight.

Bizen Okayama Sukekane or related school so far appears to be a good match. They did clusters of very roundish choji. Very distinctive features is that sometimes these choji on the opposite sides of the cluster point slightly in opposite directions. If you find such choji - that's Sukekane.

Thank you Rivkin for that information  ! I will have to do some study to fully understand your reply but look forward to that, I will endeavour to photograph the boshi soon, all the best 

[Chrometank]

[Jon]

That looks like a really nice find, time to get studying that blade  I would say. If someone sold that as a arsenal made gunto they made a big error.

[Chrometank]

37 minutes ago, Jon said:

That looks like a really nice find, time to get studying that blade  I would say. If someone sold that as a arsenal made gunto they made a big error.

Thanks Jon, there was an auction of over 250 swords, the two I bought were the cheapest ones. I will post the other blade soon,  cheers 

[Chrometank]

Rivkin,  could I assume the blade is from the mid 1800s or am I completely off ?

Cheers

[Rivkin]

Small probability sue-Bizen circa 1530, large probability Okayama Bizen 1850.

[WillFalstaff]

To my inexperienced eyes, I find it strange that the yokote is missing. Could be a “wartime” polish on an old blade? The hamon shows, but see no distinct hada. 

[Chrometank]

Thank you for the replies,  I see that there is an expert in Australia,   Andrew Ickeringill  , who does polishing and appraisals, for $200 he offers  for full in-hand appraisal, which includes a written report covering provenance, condition, value & restoration options.

Would this be worthwhile for this sword ?  

Thanks in advance for sharing your knowledge 

All the best

Paul 

 

[NewB]

I'd like to offer my 2 cents. I'd consider it if you are ready to go through the complete restoration which isn't cheap and sometimes it takes long to receive back. Not many are properly trained so you've got to select carefully. If you are to be going with the investment then I wouldn't be looking for a mediocre restoration. To me, the length of the cutting edge and thickness of where the tang starts are a decisive factor. If it is to turn around and sell, most likely not.

 

Cheers,

 

J

 

P.S I like the tempering part a lot. I see yakidashi (the beginning of the tempering part) so it could be a Shinto piece... or it's just the photos 😜

[Chrometank]

Thanks Darkon, I was thinking more of an appraisal than a restoration,  I see that polishing can be thousands of dollars. I  bought the two swords for the WW2 connection not so much the blades but I find all of this fascinating, even though I don't follow all of the terminology.  Yet !!

Cheers 

[Rivkin]

35 minutes ago, Chrometank said:

Thank you for the replies,  I see that there is an expert in Australia,   Andrew Ickeringill  , who does polishing and appraisals, for $200 he offers  for full in-hand appraisal, which includes a written report covering provenance, condition, value & restoration options.

Would this be worthwhile for this sword ?  

Thanks in advance for sharing your knowledge 

All the best

Paul 

 

Hard No would be my take.

[Rivkin]

23 minutes ago, Darkcon said:

P.S I like the tempering part a lot. I see yakidashi (the beginning of the tempering part) so it could be a Shinto piece... or it's just the photos 😜

Yokoyama Bizen....

[NewB]

1 minute ago, Rivkin said:

Yokoyama Bizen....

 

Thank you Kirill. Sukenaga?

 

John

[NewB]

15 minutes ago, Chrometank said:

Thanks Darkon, I was thinking more of an appraisal than a restoration,  I see that polishing can be thousands of dollars. I  bought the two swords for the WW2 connection not so much the blades but I find all of this fascinating, even though I don't follow all of the terminology.  Yet !!

Cheers 

 

I misunderstood then. Easy to pinpoint an approximate value by looking what sells around in the same condition. The noticeable difference would be prices in EU, Japan and the US.

 

J.

[Rivkin]

To be completely honest there was one person in shinto who tempered similarly and used yakidashi, but he is very rare and then boshi will be suguha.

Assuming its not suguha (impossible to see on pictures) yakidashi I think would still point to Yokoyama Bizen. Who exactly would need to be details of the work, but I suspect its someone a bit lesser in the group, though still as good as most of them.

[Chrometank]

2 minutes ago, Darkcon said:

 

I misunderstood then. Easy to pinpoint an approximate value by looking what sells around in the same condition. The noticeable difference would be prices in EU, Japan and the US.

 

J.

Thanks 

 

3 minutes ago, Darkcon said:

 

I misunderstood then. Easy to pinpoint an approximate value by looking what sells around in the same condition. The noticeable difference would be prices in EU, Japan and the US.

 

J.

Thanks John,  I don't care so much for the value more the history. 

I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts, 

Cheers

[NewB]

2 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

To be completely honest there was one person in shinto who tempered similarly and used yakidashi, but he is very rare and then boshi will be suguha.

Assuming its not suguha (impossible to see on pictures) yakidashi I think would still point to Yokoyama Bizen. Who exactly would need to be details of the work, but I suspect its someone a bit lesser in the group, though still as good as most of them.

 

It reminds me of mine so much..

 

[Chrometank]

4 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

To be completely honest there was one person in shinto who tempered similarly and used yakidashi, but he is very rare and then boshi will be suguha.

Assuming its not suguha (impossible to see on pictures) yakidashi I think would still point to Yokoyama Bizen. Who exactly would need to be details of the work, but I suspect its someone a bit lesser in the group, though still as good as most of them.

Thank you Rivkin, Is it possible to nail down a time frame and school with better photos or is it always open to interpretation  ? 

Cheers 

[Rivkin]

Just now, Chrometank said:

Thank you Rivkin, Is it possible to nail down a time frame and school with better photos or is it always open to interpretation  ? 

Cheers 

 

Outline of boshi would help. 

[Chrometank]

1 minute ago, Rivkin said:

 

Outline of boshi would help. 

Will do, cheers 

[Rivkin]

9 minutes ago, Chrometank said:

Will do, cheers 

Thanks! If its absolutely straight, its shinto and there will be one-two possible guys.

[Chrometank]

Hi Rivkin,  I  did the outline, the boshi appears to rise a half millimetre over the last 30-40 millimetres.

I took some other photos,  hopefully they help 

Cheers

[Chrometank]

The cutting edge is 715mm. Here is where the blade turns into the tang

Cheers 

[Bryce]

G'day Paul,

Unfortunately we can't see the boshi. Here are a couple of shots of my Bizen Yokoyama Sukenaga to compare.

Cheers,

Bryce

 

[Chrometank]

55 minutes ago, Bryce said:

G'day Paul,

Unfortunately we can't see the boshi. Here are a couple of shots of my Bizen Yokoyama Sukenaga to compare.

Cheers,

Bryce

 

What a beautiful sword  ! Thank you Bryce,  I can't see the boshi on mine like it is on yours. Sorry I thought the Kissaki was the boshi,  in the right light i can see a wavy hamon but much thinner than on the blade edge.  Would a professional polisher bring that out or is it possible my sword has been shortened and its actually gone ? 

Cheers