Shosoin and the imperial collection after WW2

[Ynot]

In the list of missing swords from WW2 are there any swords from the imperial collection or the Shosoin present there,

or were there orders not to touch anything from the imperial household/shosoin?

 

Tony

[SteveM]

This is an interesting question - I looked around on the internet and couldn't find anything. 

Maybe these were collected, and put in storage as part of the Akabane Swords, and then returned to the imperial household in the 50s. 

Hopefully someone here will know something definitive.

[Rivkin]

Almost nothing from the top collections went missing. Contrary to a popular discourse, in part advertised by Dr. Honma, occupying force's intention was to secure arms against a possibility of guerilla tactics, not in the slightest to confiscate historical pieces from important collections. The missing very important pieces were frankly stolen by members of the occupation force. Otherwise, beginning with 1945 police (which was tasked with enforcing the prohibition) began to issue typed letters in very poor English, classifying specific blades and collections as those of artistic or historical value.

That's part of the reason it is very hard to buy a really top notch blade outside of Japan.

[Baba Yaga]

Does everyone realize the allied forces burnt down Tokyo ( cluster bombs ) a few times? Then we hydrogen bombed them twice, and then confiscated what ever they could. What ever wasn't kept was dumped in the ocean,. Japan would fit in California alone.  

[Brian]

What's your point Pat? Or are you just stirring the pot?

 

[Baba Yaga]

15 minutes ago, Brian said:

What's your point Pat? Or are you just stirring the pot?

 

No pot to stir. unless it's the kind we smoke.  My point, I believe many many swords and other art was either destroyed, or "taken".

War is bad and destroys cultures. We have no idea how much information and treasure was lost when the  library of Alexandria burnt. 

[Toryu2020]

123 plays by Aristophenes alone!!

[Ynot]

But if some important swords were lost and not burnt and burried in the rubble why didnt they report them missing

maybe the Japanese have a longer list we dont know about or the emperor just didnt want to put  them on the missing list for some reason?

 

According to Yamanaka there are many blades missing.

 

Now I will stop:)

 

 

[Rivkin]

Before WWII there was great Kanto earthquake. Before that there was great Ansei earthquake. Japanese cities existed in the reality of being thoroughly wiped out by fire every 100-300 years. The buildings you find with a note that this is 700 years old often have 70 years old walls. What happened during WWII is yari were summarily destroyed, since they were as a rule not considered artistic and the populace was ask to give them to the government (together with dogs etc. etc. etc.).

A lot of lesser waki were smelted as well. 

 

But otherwise out of kokuho, jubi, items in the two volume Daimyo collection published register - very little was lost or damaged. No more than real Rembrandts were destroyed in Europe.

The realistic maximum a discerning collector could get in the USA in better years was upper grade Yoshioka Ichimonji in gunto mounts.

The top of the top either remained in Japan, a few pieces were stolen by military personnel entering police stations/dwellings, and a few sold to highest rank collectors outside starting around 1960-1980, much more so in the past 20 years. 

When it comes to saiha on the market, 95% are Muromachi period's items. They were mass produced, not protected, and the country burned ablaze as a whole.

By comparison I am yet to see shinshinto blade which is saiha/burned. You would expect many if the damage was that significant, yet they literally don't exist. Whatever the damage was caused by Tokyo bombings or at Hiroshima, it did leave little imprint on the sword world.

 

Regarding the so called Imperial collection, much of it was actually... sold openly. Most of what was owned by Japanese nobility was confiscated and redistributed by the occupying forces. Almost ever "palace" and nearly all agricultural land became either public property or was distributed to renters. Even today you can buy a decent Imperial china set in Japan for about 150,000 yen - stuff from many princely palaces. You can buy blades with pre-war sayagaki or documents to one of the princes. 

 

[Rivkin]

One thing which I feel is poorly understood in the West is that for 99.9% of Japanese whether in 1800 or today to own Ichimonji is Unthinkable. They can own 100k car, can custom order transparent door to their garage so its seen by everyone, but Ichimonji is both unusual and above their station. A salarymen in Japan does not collect anything ever, a wealthy person might collect minor things, and then there are very few people who own a LOT. It was always like this. Big time collectors did not wait for allied bombing in Tokyo, there are plenty of mountain houses to send one's family and items to.

 

[Baba Yaga]

 Thanks Kirill, that great information I'm sure comes from documentation.  

[WillFalstaff]

10 hours ago, Baba Yaga said:

Does everyone realize the allied forces burnt down Tokyo ( cluster bombs ) a few times? Then we hydrogen bombed them twice, and then confiscated what ever they could. What ever wasn't kept was dumped in the ocean,. Japan would fit in California alone.  

 

The firebombing of Japan used bombs that were incendiary bombs, meant to burn as much of the civilian population as possible in an attempt at ending the war through civilian attrition, which didn’t work, hence the atomic bomb, which were not hydrogen bombs.

 

Here is the difference: (from trumanlibrary.gov) “An atomic bomb uses either uranium or plutonium and relies on fission, a nuclear reaction in which a nucleus or an atom breaks apart into two pieces. To make a hydrogen bomb, one would still need uranium or plutonium as well as two other isotopes of hydrogen, called deuterium and tritium.” Final note, the first hydrogen (thermonuclear) bomb was tested in 1952. 

Edited March 8, 2022 by WillFalstaff
edited out Mr. Stuck-up History Nerd type response

[MHC]

Hey there Pat,

 

Just to pick the fly s**t out of the pepper......the 2 bombs dropped on Japan in WWII were NOT hydrogen bombs, they were straight Atomic bombs.

 

Even though I think you did not intend to imply that the USA dropped atomic bombs on Tokyo, however, your verbiage was unclear and hinted at that being the case.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the only 2 targets for the atomic bombs used.

 

Hydrogen bombs were a further development of the base atomic bomb, which increased the yield substantially. No Hydrogen bomb has ever been used in combat anywhere in the world to date.

 

Additionally, technically a cluster bomb is not an incendiary bomb per say (albeit an incendiary bomb canister contains many individual ordinance pieces), a cluster bomb contains individual explosive ordinance while an incendiary bomb contains individual incendiary ordinance.

 

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

 

Mark

[IanB]

Far more damage was done to many fine swords long before WWII.  Nikko Toshogu Shrine held the sword collection made by Tokugawa Ieyasu, stored in a special building in the Shrine grounds. Tragically, this was accidently set on fire in the 1840's or thereabouts. The Shrine still has a box full of the burnt blades, only one, by a Tadayoshi, having been put through yaki-ire to restore it. They still have however a number of magnificent lacquer boxes in which Ieyasu's swords used to be kept. Coincidently, the Grand Storehouse at the Tower of London burnt down around the same time and vast amounts of munitions were lost as well as old tournament equipment and other treasures.

Ian Bottomley

[Baba Yaga]

10 hours ago, MHC said:

Hey there Pat,

 

Just to pick the fly s**t out of the pepper......the 2 bombs dropped on Japan in WWII were NOT hydrogen bombs, they were straight Atomic bombs.

 

 

 

Mark

 My apologies, I must of skipped that bomb day in school and went on a ayahuasca retreat. 

Then again, the movie "The day after" scared me for life. I can't remember if it was the red wire, or the black wire needed to be cut. 

[Baba Yaga]

4 hours ago, IanB said:

  Nikko Toshogu Shrine held the sword collection made by Tokugawa Ieyasu, stored in a special building in the Shrine grounds. Tragically, this was accidently set on fire in the 1840's or thereabouts. The Shrine still has a box full of the burnt blades, only one, by a Tadayoshi, having been put through yaki-ire to restore it. 

Ian Bottomley

Thanks, I didn't know that either. I'm fascinated by this history.  

[Jussi Ekholm]

One thing to note that Yamanaka Newsletters were written in late 60's to early 70's. Some of the missing items have been found since then. Jim Kurrasch wrote and updated list on 1996, which can be seen on Rays site: https://swordsofjapan.com/important-missing-nihonto/ And the finds have been continuing on occasional basis even to this day.

 

What is more shocking to me that there are currently a fair amount (c.60 or so) of Jūyō Bunkazai swords in Japan of which the current whereabout is not know to Agency for Cultural Affairs. I am not sure how and why some of those items have gone under the radar.

[Rivkin]

could not help myself against stating that Jim's article is exceptionally misleading on virtually every aspect it touches.

[Jussi Ekholm]

There might be some things that would be written differently today. The article is soon 30 years old, likewise Yamanaka Newsletters were written 50 years ago. Lots of things have changed since they were written, there are indeed some things that I would for example write differently.

 

However that is probably most up to date info on the missing swords found that I have currently access to. I do know some other significant finds from other sources as well. Perhaps an up to date list should be combined by our members together?

 

 

[Rivkin]

I don't think tracking jubi is realistic. Such papers were issued in quantity and the "missing objects" are those taken from shrines etc. by some members of occupation forces... which is limited to but a few cases of outright theft from important official institutions. Police was enforcing the new laws actively from 1946 with more or less uniform understanding that it does not concern historical swords not in gunto mounts especially so in any important collections, though there were numerous occasions when either police or occupation forces took posession of something they did not comprehend.

 

What was always more interesting to me is a tremendous number of blades that stayed in Japan but purposefully lost connection to their Daimyo owners. Things you buy in Japan and then find in Shimazu sales catalogue or some comparable register. I would not say you discover its Jubi, in part as doing this would be quite difficult, but with a potential Daimyo property and knowing a general region, you have to search against 1000-2000 blades in published registers/catalogues and finding your blade there is realistic. So there was a substantial drive to sell the blades in 1950-1960 without confirming their origin.

Most Daimyo families were quite stressed financially and while almost nothing from them went to the West, internally it was a huge market. Those can be thought of as "missing blades", yet the missing part was done on purpose.

[Jussi Ekholm]

Well maybe not realistic but it is fun. As for me this hobby is just mostly about seeking information on various items rather than having them. I agree with you that finding items that were once part of Daimyō etc. collections would be really fun. Likewise finding the items published in very old oshigata books etc.

 

Here is Shintōgo Kunimitsu blade that seems to have been once part of Shimazu collection: https://www.nipponto.co.jp/swords8/TT328774.htm at least it is presented as such. (However this has been through several dealers in Japan even online).

 

I've been eyeing to get that book for myself too, as well as few books on Imperial collection swords & Shōsōin swords. There are just way too many interesting books out there.

[Surfson]

I have purchased a few items over the years and subsequently found the very item to be listed in a book.  It is a thrill.  I can't imagine finding one of the lost treasure swords though, as I believe Ian has.  

[Rivkin]

On 3/10/2022 at 4:33 AM, Jussi Ekholm said:

Well maybe not realistic but it is fun. As for me this hobby is just mostly about seeking information on various items rather than having them. I agree with you that finding items that were once part of Daimyō etc. collections would be really fun. Likewise finding the items published in very old oshigata books etc.

 

I think you'll have a blast with these two volumes. Its really interesting to build tables who preferred what, a very different experience compared to Juyo POV we have today.

I might have spare copies but I am not sure. Someone with far better Japanese than mine can certainly get much more out of them.

 

As a dumpster diver in Japan I obviously always getting a LOT of hatred from the collegium of American dealers whose dogma is that such activity is impossible in principle. In fact I would characterize it as being hard limited in certain aspects (yes you are buying blades that were seen by dozens of people who know at least something), but very rewarding in others. And one thing you definitely see as having a large impact even today is a mass selloff of Daimyo collections in 1950-1960 which often purposefully severed links to old information. Buying a blade in Japan and finding it is an important Daimyo piece is not only not impossible, but probable, though you have to get used that attribution very often shifts in modern papers downward.

If you have Tametsugu suspected of being Daimyo treasure, check the register for Norishige or Go.

 

If there is an important Jubi whose location is unknown today, chances are it was simply sold quietly. A great blade without Jubi status, which was common prewar might even have some generic Yamato papers today.

[Baba Yaga]

On 3/9/2022 at 12:19 PM, Rivkin said:

could not help myself against stating that Jim's article is exceptionally misleading on virtually every aspect it touches.

 

Hey Kirill,

 

Do you know about a team of collectors who talked themselves into a USA museum for KANTEI? I seem to remember they found the swords were replaced with lessor.

[Rivkin]

All US museums are patronized by Morihiro Ogawa. 

He is disliked by many, myself not being an exception.

[Wah]

Thank you Pat and Rivkin,

Wow, this certainly opens up and answers some questions in my past. In 2003,  I thought I found a lost important sword.

I had contacted a well respected person in Japan who's grandfather had owned my sword.

This person, respectfully asked me to contact Morihiro Ogawa to get answers since at the time we were both in the USA. At the time, I was monetarily embarrassed so I did not make the contact or the trip. Sadly, later I found that it was impossible to contact him unless you're somebody. That excluded me. Lol!

I feel if this ex NYK ceo asked me to show the sword to Morihiro Ogawa, he probably knows Morihiro Ogawa knows the correct identity of his missing prewar Kokuho sword.

 

To add to the topic here, there are some important missing swords that have slightly or largely false descriptions. That is why, I feel they have not been discovered. 

I was told the reason for this is not because of dishonesty. It is probably because these particular swords were held in high regard. They were like the Imperial sword called Kusanagi-no-Tsurugi. No one is allowed to see it or know its dimension because of tradition.

 

Regardless of what one thinks, if you have what appears to be a treasure, you need to find the expert that truly knows. (Talking to myself here)

Since Morihiro Ogawa is patronized by all US museums, that's clear indicator that the man "knows" and is seeking.

If someone has Morihiro Ogawa's contact information,  I would deeply like to follow through with what is to be and what was asked of me.

Thank you kindly

Stephen T.

[Kanenaga]

I met Ogawa-sensei by accident while visiting the Boston Museum of Fine Arts some years ago.  At that time, he was curator of the sword collections at the Met, MFA, and LACMA. He seems to have a somewhat negative reputation in the US, I don't know why. He has always been gracious to me, gave me and several sword-friends a personal tour of his landmark exhibition at the Met in 2010 -- IMHO one of the greatest exhibitions of Japanese swords ever, 25 national treasure blades and other top stuff gathered together from all over Japan: 

 

https://www.alibris.com/search/books/isbn/9780300142051?browse=1&mtype=B

https://www.abebooks.com/Art-Samurai-Japanese-Arms-Armor-1156-1868/30037750546/bd?cm_mmc=ggl-_-US_Shopp_Textbook-_-product_id=COM9780300142051USED-_-keyword=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsIenttLS9gIVfz6tBh1JlAEYEAQYAyABEgLDsfD_BwE

 

However, I do not know about his present whereabouts or availability for consultation.

[Rivkin]

2 hours ago, Kanenaga said:

I met Ogawa-sensei by accident while visiting the Boston Museum of Fine Arts some years ago.  At that time, he was curator of the sword collections at the Met, MFA, and LACMA. He seems to have a somewhat negative reputation in the US, I don't know why.

 

Nihonto community is addicted to titles. Often fake ones.

[Baba Yaga]

3 hours ago, Kanenaga said:

However, I do not know about his present whereabouts or availability for consultation.

 

A lot of other people who can be found may be able to help you.  In fact, you may want to receive 3 consultations before making your own conclusion.  

 

Good luck