Gimei

[reinhard]

Well done my dear forumites,

 

The left mei is shoshin, the right one is gi. As Brian and others pointed out: This gi-mei is extremely well done. We're looking at an enlarged pic of it side by side to a waterproof reference mei. TADATSUNA's mei varied slightly during his long career and after all, he was no machine. Again, imagine yourselves in a situation with not much time, poor lighting conditions or even worse: a low-res pic posted on a site. You are free to rely on gut-feeling, of course, but in doing so, you are walking on very thin ice. This gi-mei is quite fluently written and rather well-placed. There are some hesitating moments though and what is most important (and cannot be seen properly in a pic): the depth of chisel-marks remains approximately the same in shoshin-mei, but usually varies in gi-mei.

 

reinhard

[reinhard]

  Grey Doffin said:

Look at the work, not the signature. While there may be quite a few smiths with the same signature, for each of them, it the signature is legit, the work must match what he did.

 

This is not about poor fakes. Kajibei was able to copy works of top-class ShinTo masters like KOTETSU, Tsuta SUKEHIRO and others on a supreme level.

 

reinhard

[Ford Hallam]

As a subscriber to the Menome journal I had enjoyed the article tremendously. I wonder if it might not be worth getting it translated as it really is very detailed and informative.

 

To add to something Reinhard said about copying mei;

  Quote

the depth of chisel-marks remains approximately the same in shoshin-mei, but usually varies in gi-mei.

 

A smith will almost certainly always use the same punch each time he puts his mei on a sword. So one can expect with a certain degree of confidence that the actual, individual strike marks should be the same from sword to sword. For someone copying a mei from an oshigata...or in modern times, a photograph, it would be extremely difficult to work out exactly the length, shape and angle of the face of the masters punch. In addition to this the master is using a particular hammer each time, which has a specific weight. When hammering he will allow the weight of the hammer, falling from a certain height, to create the depth of the mark. The copiest is having to watch the shape he's copying so carefully, making sure he gets the correct number of strokes and strikes etc, that it becomes extremely difficult to emulate that natural flow that the genuine mei will naturally reveal. On top of that the faker is effectively writing in someone else's handwriting.

 

What I find very interesting in this example is how some of the strokes, and even kanji, on the gimei seem to me to more beautiful than the shoshin...but of course the aesthetic quality of the mei isn't the critical factor is assessing it's authenticity but something to bear in mind also lest the "nicer" one convinces you just because it looks better in a purely calligraphic sense.

 

regards,

 

ford

[Lorenzo]

  Ford Hallam said:

As a subscriber to the Menome journal I had enjoyed the article tremendously.

[Jean]

Gunther wrote :

 

"What do you think, now that the brains have had their warming up gimei or not?"

 

I think that with this post, you must be aware by now taht nobody in this board is able to answer your question for the following reasons :

 

1 - Mei must match the work, it is the last thing to look up at (that was kantei is all about)

2 - there is no reference mei to be compared with

3 - We cannot see the way it is chiselled (and even then we would not be able on the board to say Gimei or not).

 

I am not sure that there are no more than 50 people in the world able to say it is fakedi or not by the mei chiselling (sword in hand of course) if the faker is very good.

[Jacques]

  reinhard said:

  Grey Doffin said:

Look at the work, not the signature. While there may be quite a few smiths with the same signature, for each of them, it the signature is legit, the work must match what he did.

 

This is not about poor fakes. Kajibei was able to copy works of top-class ShinTo masters like KOTETSU, Tsuta SUKEHIRO and others on a supreme level.

 

reinhard

 

One of the most known gimei is one of Hikobeinojo Sukesada made by Koyama Munetsugu.

 

I would come back to Ikkanshi Tadatsune. Checking my library i've noticed that the location of the mekugi-ana cannot be a kantei point contrary to what was said.

 

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Of course you're right and that's because I made the whole process without checking books

as in the spirit of the matter, differently from others that got wrong details *notwithstanding*

using books, possibly because their library is not so good as supposed.

[Eric H]

Mekugi ana placement can not be a decisive factor for authenticity - at least not in the present case.

 

Another example by Tadatsuna II, circa Genroku jidai (has papers).

 

Eric

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Hi Eric.

 

Thanks, I already got that to place the first stroke of the first kanji to indicate where to drill the mekugiana plays no role here and consequently also what could appear a little rightmost-displacing of the whole gimei.

 

As I've not read the article what I would rather have feedbacks on, from you and/or other knowledgeable people is about the second part of my reply concerning the feeling the rightmost mei gives in front of the left one.

 

My reply about calligraphy, fluency and dimensions really isn't a good explanation of my feeling but as I've participated to gain knowledge need to know if I got it right and anyway it would be a good occasion to explain things to others at my expenses (with some fun for somebody :lol: ).

 

The rightmost one, as said, shows some strokes/kanji that even look better then the Shoshin and I got it and Brian as well,

I think.

But just some. Was it the Shoshin most or all should have appeared better. In other words, the leftmost one looks more "homogeneous" in writing to me, even if not "nicer".

 

Second reason not well explained is the dimensions matter. I think we're looking at pictures not *exactly* of the same scale, so my reply about dimensions can be misinterpreted. As already said, to get the right lenght of a stroke is hard for a faker, so I assumed that the reason because of in the rightmost signature the strokes are more distanced and possibly longer ,giving an appearance of unbalancing, is because of the faker was carefully watching at the direction and shape of the strokes/kanji trying to show them the best way possible and making them a little bigger and more distanced that the leftmost one that looks more natural.

 

I wouldn't be able to spot these differences if not with side by side pictures, and possibly is just a case of "Scotoma" (can't translate but in italian means something "the eye see what the brain want) and I simply got luck.

I assume this is no rule in any way and just works in this case, but I really would like to have feedbacks to learn something.

 

 

Thanks.

[Jacques]

  Jean said:

 

 

Nobody knows what are the distinct characteristics of the 30/40 Tadamitsu smiths during sue Muromachi, I doubt very much that that all their different mei are listed. You'll get a general tendancy for this school saying : very fine/refined hada, generally suguha based hamon with a tendancy to broaden at the level of the kissaki. problem : mine has ashis which is an exception in the lineage, but no books I know are talking about it,

 

 

Fujishiro koto jiten page 194.

 

 

  Quote

Plate II: HIRO SUGUBA HOTSURE

Wide suguba ashi iri, this is frequent in late Bizen, and is especially common with Tadamitsu and

Kiyomitsu. The bôshi of Kiyomitsu is extended and has a hint of midare.

[Jean]

Sorry Jacques, it is absolutely not what Fujishiro is refering to

[Jean]

Sorry Jacques, I knew the book and it is far from being exhaustive as stated in my pots, you cannot list all the lineage of Tadamitsu smiths with their own individual characteristics and mei.

 

Here is the oshigata compare it to the Fujishiro and you see that there is no moto choji ashi iri and that the boshi is totally different

[Jean]

rather saka choji ashi

[hybridfiat]

Thank you Reinhart, Ive enjoyed this far more than Id expected.

The lesson you and the other contributors have given was well structured, easier to follow and more interesting than some of the more esoteric discussions that have been posted on this fascinating subject.