Scratched off mons

[Ontario_Archaeology]

On a lot of Japanese rifles surrendered, the mon of the emperor was scratched off as a way to preserve "honour". I am curious why we don't see gunto with mons scratched off before they were surrendered as much. What do you guys think? I think Ives seen one or two examples but I never saved the images. 

 

Matt

[Bruce Pennington]

There was a big discussion on Gunboards about the requirement to deface kiku on guns.  The predominant claim is that the US Govt required G.I.s to do it before they would be allowed to bring the rifles home.  Quite a few G.I. stories to back that up.  If memory serves me, it was part of the Occupational governments' agreement with Japanese officials. 

 

Personal mon were not defaming the Emperor, so weren't as big a deal, although, like you say, some were defaced or removed, just as tassels were sometimes removed or cut off.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hi Matt, one of the main reasons is the difference in connotations between the Imperial Chrysanthemum and family Kamon. The Imperial crest was only used by the Imperial family and had divine connotations, whereas a normal family crest could be more mundane. Especially after the Meiji restoration giving free reign on who could use Kamon. The reasons for an officer to deface or remove their Kamon from a sword would likely be related to deep shame in their actions (potential war crimes), or defeat and surrender in general.

[robinalexander]

  On 3/2/2022 at 11:23 PM, Ontario_Archaeology said:

I think Ives seen one or two examples but I never saved the images. 

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Matt,

A couple of pics from my TERUHIDE Ishido, for your interest.

Rob

[PNSSHOGUN]

One from the recent auction: https://www.lloydsonline.com.au/LotDetails.aspx?smode=0&aid=29125&lid=3329858&pgn=1&pgs=100

[Ontario_Archaeology]

Interesting, the thought just popped into my head and I thought I'd ask! Doesn't shock me even a bit to know you guys had the answers! 

 

Bruce that's really interesting about the GIs having to scratch off the mon for war prizes, here I thought captured Japanese soilders were frantically filing off the mons before handing over their rifles. 

 

Thanks! 

[Stephen]

Mostly it was company commanders ordering them to do so that's why you'll still see some with them on.

[Bugyotsuji]

I have a matchlock from 1847 with partly-defaced Mon of the Hosokawa. I was told it was family shame at the need to sell such an object, though I am not 100% convinced.

 

Maybe the dealer had agreed to erase the Mon as part of the sale, but left just enough to recognize what it was...?

[Bazza]

An enemy could have done it with the equivalent of the now famed Ukrainian response to a Russian navy ship...

 

BaZZa.

[rebcannonshooter]

My Yasukuni YasuMitsu has the family Mon intact, but the silver dedication on the fuchi was removed.  I've often wondered if it had some imperial connection that caused the officer to remove it??

Tom M.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hi Tom, that's a special piece and place for a silver dedication. There was a similar one with the officers surname on a sword posted here last year.