Oil quenched and water quenched, plus hozon papers.

[Paz]

Hi all 

Couple of questions. 

 

If a sword is oil quenched and made during ww2 ie a showato this would be classed as non traditional or not a nihonto correct ? . Would this type of sword ever be given a hozon by NBTHK? 

 

There is a sword which has hozon papers , made by 23rd generation kanefusa during WW2. However the mei doesant show a star which a jumyo would usually have. 

 

Would this sword still be considered a true nihonto, as it has hozon. 

 

Thanks 

 

Photos attached 

[Brian]

Quite a few non-traditional swords have "slipped through the cracks" lately and been papered. I expect it is more who is submitting than what is being submitted.
Even a handful of machine made NCO shin Gunto.
So no....you have to judge each sword on its own, and not rely on the fact that papers means it is 100% traditionally made.

[Paz]

Thanks Brian.  How can you tell if it is non traditional? By images 

 

I attach some more. The blade looks great though. Thanks 

[vajo]

The pictures you show is a traditional made sword and water hardned.

[Brian]

You think? At that price? I think Aoi would be pricing this higher if it's Gendaito. And most of the 23rd Gen Kanefusa that I've seen have been high end Showato. He did make Gendaito....but plenty with arsenal stamps are seen.
Dunno...I'm not convinced.
http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/kanefusa.htm

[Bruce Pennington]

Paz, you also have to keep in mind that the RJT system didn't really get started until 1942.  So a smith could have been making both showato and gendaito before the program, then, once the program was going, got registered.  Even after being registered, I have seen blades by RJT smiths without the star, meaning it could have been showato, or it could have simply been sold on the private market.

[Paz]

So are we saying this particular sword is not gendaito or traditionally made sword ? What made me think that was the missing star on the tang 

 

@Bruce Cthis is what I'm trying to ascertain. I researched the Smith and he does have some great work. I've emailed Aoi asking them if this is oil or water quenched. Also aoi have described machine made blades before on description. 

 

I cant tell if this was for a private collection or made for the army, in which it would have star stamp. As I belive that the army Controlled all sword making at this time. 

 

The price is cheap for gendaito which go for more than 4k dollars. Confused I am. 

But the blade looks wonderful 

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

Paz,

if a blade has HADA and CHOJI-HAMON with NIE, you can be sure it is traditionally made and water quenched. You don't get these features with modern industrial steel and oil quenching.

[Paz]

1 hour ago, ROKUJURO said:

Paz,

if a blade has HADA and CHOJI-HAMON with NIE, you can be sure it is traditionally made and water quenched. You don't get these features with modern industrial steel and oil quenching.

 Thanks Jean. 

 

But if that's the case with this sword , how come does it not have a star stamp. Was this made before ww2. Also this sword doesant have hozon. Instead it says guarantees hozon.

 

 

[Brian]

Star stamp was ONLY used by the RJT program. That is a very small forging operation compared to the huge number of Gendaito that were made. The lack of one is meaningless.

[Paz]

3 minutes ago, Brian said:

Star stamp was ONLY used by the RJT program. That is a very small forging operation compared to the huge number of Gendaito that were made. The lack of one is meaningless.

 

Thanks Brian. 

 

What's confusing me is the term showato. 

Collectors refer to as showato those swords which are not traditional. 

 

While gendaito are traditionally made swords. 

 

This particular piece is referred to as a showato in description but does not look like a fake or non traditional made. And of course it has all aspects of a traditional sword. 

 

 

[ckaiserca]

5 hours ago, Paz said:

This particular piece is referred to as a showato in description but does not look like a fake or non traditional made. And of course it has all aspects of a traditional sword. 

In this case, I think that Showato refers to a sword that was made during the Showa Era. It does not always mean that the sword was not traditionally made. The description is simply stating that this sword has an amazingly good polish for a sword made during this period.  Also note that this sword does not currently have Hozon papers. It is only guaranteed to receive Hozon if submitted to shinsa.

[Paz]

41 minutes ago, ckaiserca said:

In this case, I think that  Showato refers to a sword that was made during the Showa Era. It does not always mean that the sword was not traditionally  made. The description is simply stating that this sword has an amazingly good polish for a sword made during this period.  Also note that this sword does not currently have Hozon papers. It is only guaranteed to receive Hozon if submitted to shinsa.

Thanks Charles yep just read that. 

 

So this sword was forged between 1940 to 1942 before RJT programme. That would make more sense. 

 

However it is quite cheap for a traditional sword if so

[Brian]

Why do you keep expecting a star stamp or anything to do with the RJT program?
I don't even know if this smith was a RJT smith, or if ANY of his swords have the star stamp. You can't date it because it doesn't have one. Even RTJ smiths made swords with star stamps and without.
Forget the lack of any certain stamps here....it doesn't apply to this sword.
Yes....Aoi refers to the period when they talk about Showa.
Personally, I think this isn't a Gendai sword though. I think it's a high end Showato. I don't see any activity or hada or anything that definitely says 100% traditionally made. But it's possible. He made both. No tang markings are going to tell you which in this case.
 

[Stephen]

Lots of Kanefusa to dig through to fig whos on first.

http://search.freefind.com/find.html?si=94437683&pid=r&n=0&_charset_=UTF-8&bcd=÷&query=Kanefusa