UK Import Issue - Border force Seizure and Court Case

[FZ1]

On 3/1/2022 at 12:10 PM, Paz said:

I absolutely belive that you should get in touch with Michael chairman of the Token society GB. And write an email to him describing him what's going on. 

 

I think he already knows!  

[mas4t0]

On 2/24/2022 at 5:03 PM, Lareon said:

@Brian feel free to move this to a different section if needed 


I Recently purchased a couple of swords from the USA in an auction, I've done this many times and not had too much of an issue except postal service delays etc and long customs times.

Usually i use UPS or Parcelforce, If I can't use UPS. For some reason even after requesting UPS, The auction house I purchased the items from used DHL express.

 

1. UK law on importing swords:

   a. Swords with a "curved blade" over 50cm long are illegal to bring into the uk UNLESS:

        i. Antiques

        ii. Swords Made to traditional methods

        iii. Swords made with any method before 1954.

 

Both swords easily meet these categories ;

1. a Koto era blade unsigned in ww2 gunto mounts    - meets exception i. ii. and iii.

2. A star stamped RJT blade by Masatsugu    -- meets exception ii. iii.  and could be argued i.

 

any one of these conditions make the sword legal to import so I should of had no issues as each one meets at least 2 categories.

 

2. Shipping.

 

I made the auction house include the invoice to the outside and inside of the box. I also wrote a supplementary A4 sheet with a description of each item and more importantly why they are legal. 
After the item shipped it went through customs a few times in the USA and then hit the uk where it was held in customs. I received a phone call asking for an invoice as it was not included supposedly. I emailed over the invoice and also included the supplementary information just in case.

 

this was the 6th of February.

 

the item cleared customs then went back in and i had to supply the invoice again. this was the 9th of feb.

 

I phoned up a few times in the coming days to check what was going on because i had been told it would be out for delivery 

 

on wednesday the 16th i received an email to pay my customs duty and taxes. 

I was happy with this as that means it had cleared customs and was going to be out for delivery.

 

the next day it hit another customs check and was held. 

 

3. Police

 

on the 18th of february I had a notifcation on my nest doorbell and when checking i saw two policemen at my door.

I wasn't at home and they left but when i reviewed the footage and listened to the audio they mentioned the words "samurai sword"

 

I called the non emergency police number that evening and asked what was happening but was told there was no incident and my address and name weren't anywhere they could find.

 

in the morning it was still bothering me so i called again and the helpful guy at the police station put out a notification asking who had gone and why.

 

after this i received the post and in the post lo and behold i had a document from Borderforce saying the swords had been seized and to get them back I'd have to write a letter to borderforce requesting a court appearance.

The swords may be destroyed already but I would receive compensation if i win the case.

 

I called HMRC and spoke to them about the importing issues and while I was on the phone the police arrived at my door.

 

the came in and gave me a print out from google on the law on bringing in swords to the UK, they hadn't even read it themselves as they didn't know the exceptions themselves and kept telling me, it was illegal to keep the swords in my house. I refuted this a few times and pointed out the exceptions on the very paper they had handed me.

 

I was quite annoyed at being treated like a criminal with the police arriving at my door!

 

4. The next step.

 

I got onto my computer and wrote up a two page response that I then posted to Borderforce. I have to wait a minimum of 10 days from receipt to get a response which i'm currently awaiting.

This will be a civil court date and I will have to go and represent myself and why i believe Borderforce have made a mistake in seizing the items.

 

While i have no doubt the items are legal to bring in and i did everything I could. there was no real information on what caused the seizure of the items so i'm not sure if there is maybe something else I don't know. I will find out

 

I will be updating this article as time goes on and more information comes along, hopefully this article can be a point of contact for myself if anyone else has the same issue and needs some guidance.

 

 

 

5. Court

 

6. Resolution

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I helped a friend through a very similar matter a couple of years ago. His case was slightly different in that he brought the blade through customs himself; but he did so wearing an alligator skin jacket, python skin boots and an oversized gold chain - needless to say he aroused the suspicions of the border force agent and the sword was seized (all paperwork was in order).

 

The case will be heard in a Magistrates Court, the process is simple and straightforward, so you're fine without legal representation. It'll likely run several thousand pounds if you hire an experienced solicitor to handle things and an experienced barrister to represent you on the day. If you have nerves about court you can sit in at your local magistrates court and familiarise yourself with the setting and process - it's all quite informal.

 

In the case of my friend everything worked out fine in the end, but several thousand pounds of legal fees were incurred and no costs judgment made against the border force.

[Lareon]

Nah I'm not getting legal representation, quite happy to do it myself and not nervous. Just indignant.

 

I wrote a nice little essay that I sent to borderforce with a good selection of references, pictures, source material from books etc. Hammering the point home that it's legal to import. Still not sure why there can't be some more communication to sort this out without a court proceeding but fine. I'm guessing they won't drop it even with the evidence I sent and are going to waste everyone's time.

 

The simple fact is, it is legal to import, it's provable on many fronts and it's easy to argue a case where you are right and have evidence on your side.

 

I don't really expect to be awarded anything from the court but if I get something I'll spend it on importing another sword...

 

[Gakusee]

Tony

If you need an explanatory note from the To-Ken Society, please do not hesitate to ask. You are doing everything right by the sounds of it, and the legislation can be copied and pasted from the .gov website. 
What I have discovered in past dealings is that it is important to have kanteisho or shiteisho certificates presented and translated in English and whatever original source paperwork from Japan still remains. Sometimes this gets lost but it is worthwhile to obtain replacement certificates from the NBTHK or other respectable institution.  
 

i have seen on this board statements that people do not care about papers, which might be so because they are very confident in their own abilities,  but certificates do help authenticate and prove provenance more favourably than one’s opinion. 

[mas4t0]

3 hours ago, Lareon said:

Nah I'm not getting legal representation, quite happy to do it myself and not nervous. Just indignant.

 

I wrote a nice little essay that I sent to borderforce with a good selection of references, pictures, source material from books etc. Hammering the point home that it's legal to import. Still not sure why there can't be some more communication to sort this out without a court proceeding but fine. I'm guessing they won't drop it even with the evidence I sent and are going to waste everyone's time.

 

The simple fact is, it is legal to import, it's provable on many fronts and it's easy to argue a case where you are right and have evidence on your side.

 

I don't really expect to be awarded anything from the court but if I get something I'll spend it on importing another sword...

 

 

Keep in mind that this is an ongoing process and they may change their mind prior to court if presented with compelling evidence.

 

Ensure that your indignation isn't noticeable at any stage (especially in court) otherwise it would be wise to consider legal representation.

 

No matter how much you know, you won't be considered an expert witness. Knowing something is quite different from being able to prove it, especially when you won't be taken at your word due to having skin in the game.

 

How will you authenticate the Japanese papers and prove they're not forgeries?

 

Who will translate the papers, and how will the court know that your translation is accurate and unbiased?

 

The court will likely lack the pre-requisite knowledge to judge the validity of any evidence or expert testimony presented, so will tend to trust credentials.

 

To illustrate the point...

 

1. a random member of the public;
2. an Oxbridge history professor, who is a member of the Royal Historical Society and a recipient of the Cundill History Prize;
3. a religious apologist;
4. an ancient alien theorist on the History Channel.

 

...will each come to vastly different interpretations of the same historical evidence, and only one of them should be trusted to give expert testimony (with regards to the aforementioned historical evidence) in a court of law.

 

The age is likely best "proven" in court by arranging the attendance of a knowledgeable staff member from a local antiques shop or museum. That way your can keep expenses to a minimum as they'll only have to travel a few minutes.

 

The manufacturing techniques are likely best "proven" by arranging the attendance of an engineer, who has professional accreditation and can talk the court through the production processes involved..

 

This might be worth a look to add further clarity. The magistrates court is much less formal than the higher courts, but of course the same principles apply.

 

An Expert Witness can be anyone with knowledge or experience of a particular field or discipline beyond that to be expected of a layman. The Expert Witness's duty is to give to the Court or tribunal an impartial opinion on particular aspects of matters within his expertise which are in dispute.

 

A letter from Michael could of course constitute expert evidence, but you'd need to provide full disclose of any pre-existing relationship. If you were to rely on it as expert evidence, it may be expected that Michael attend the hearing (leave would need to be arranged) or else the evidence may be inadmissible.

 

 

Section 30 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 states that an expert's report is admissible as evidence of fact and opinion, whether or not the expert attends court to give oral evidence. If it is not proposed to call the expert witness, the leave of the court must be obtained prior to introducing it.

 

In considering whether to grant leave, the court will have regard to:

 

The contents of the report;

The reasons why it is proposed that the expert will not give live evidence;

The risk that it may not be possible to controvert statements in the report if the expert does not attend;

[Gakusee]

Mark, very valid points.
But frankly a random engineer or even a smith, who does not have knowledge of Japanese swords, and in particular metal-smithing and forging methods for antique Japanese blades and is not trained to see ancient blades versus modern blades might also struggle. It all depends on what lengths the court is willing to go to. The same applies to an antique shop owner, unless they specialise in Japanese swords or at least sell many of them. 

In the past, Border Force have occasionally not recognised Token Society members as experts. Or auction houses in the U.K.  have also been conservative.
Sometimes, auction houses or border force have preferred to use the option /opinions of polishers but that also becomes problematic if there is no traditionally trained polisher around or at least the polisher cannot prove they are traditionally trained or have a certificate or attestation form some authoritative organisation. The polisher might be very good or experienced but proving it to or accepting it as fact by a Court might a different matter. 
 

Authenticating the papers and proving not forgeries: can be done directly on the phone and by fax (you read that correctly) with the NBTHK. It is not straightforward (and good luck finding people there who know English well and are willing to step up) but can be done. I have used an agent in the past for that (Japanese and English speaking dealer might do it). 
 

Proving age: well also carbon-14 dating (AMS) is possible but someone will have to swallow a bitter pill for it. Of course, the issue is that a small sample needs to be taken and converted to graphite. Would I recommend this for a Juyo sword - hmmm, doubt one would want someone to mess with their sword unless it desperately needs polishing or a sacrifice can be made somewhere on the nakago. 
The best form of non-invasive evidence I can suggest is relying on the NBTHK/ NTHK certificate. Next would be an assessment by perhaps a panel of independent representatives such as a Museum specialist, polishers and ToKen Society members (effectively a mini shinsa in the U.K.) acknowledging that this is how it is done in Japan when a blade enters their territory (for the issue of a torokusho) and also admitting that any such U.K. based panel will be grossly inferior to the Japanese equivalent. 

[Brian]

Someone like Ian B, who has/had his position at the museum, should be 100% acceptable as an "expert" witness and be able to certify age/construction.
Perhaps have a word with him, maybe he will write a letter.
@IanB

[mas4t0]

7 hours ago, Gakusee said:

Mark, very valid points.
But frankly a random engineer or even a smith, who does not have knowledge of Japanese swords, and in particular metal-smithing and forging methods for antique Japanese blades and is not trained to see ancient blades versus modern blades might also struggle. It all depends on what lengths the court is willing to go to. The same applies to an antique shop owner, unless they specialise in Japanese swords or at least sell many of them.

 

The important information here is not to know the traditional handmade methods, but rather to know the machine processes, which falls within the purview of an engineer. The specifics of the traditional processes is not the relevant information to determine if something is hand made; rather a detailed knowledge of what is possible with machinery. This way we can pursue a null hypothesis.

 

You cannot prove a negative, you cannot prove it is handmade with information about handmade processes, you can only conjecture. To let an engineer explain why the blade could not be made with modern machine processes, and that as such it must be made by traditional ones (to which the exemption applies) is a much stronger argument.

 

The issue I'm addressing here is not whether the sword is a genuine nihonto, but how to establish that it is definitely exempt.

 

The primary traditional hand forming techniques are forging and stock removal. It seems clear from the modern production blades available for sale in the UK (without the need for a licence) that the working interpretation of the legislation is: if the blade were formed by hand, the blade is exempt.

 

Empirically we can see this to be the case as:

1. blades with non-traditional heat treatment are not excluded.
2. blades made from mill steel (monosteel) are not excluded on account of the steel not having been hand made.
3. furthermore, there is no way to know if a monosteel blade was drawn out by hand or if the blade was formed entirely through stock removal on a belt grinder, with no forging by the "smith".

Since none of the above are excluded from the exemption, we can conclude that hand forging, traditional heat treatment, and traditional steel are not required to qualify for the exemption.

 

So what is excluded? Blades formed by means other than forging and stock removal by hand: which would be stamping primarily and stock removal by CNC or other machine processes.

 

The rub though is that hand finishing will erase all evidence of non-traditional machining, other than in the case of a stamped blade. A stamped sword is very thin, as it's made of sheet metal. A CNC machining process could achieve the correct cross sectional geometry, and would leave behind tells, but you only need to run it on a belt grinder for a few minutes to remove all evidence.

 

It could equally be argued that by completing the blade with a hand finishing process, the blade has been hand made by traditional methods. As the final stage was evidently to stock remove by hand, it's just a matter of degrees. Are you taking it from a billet to a blade by cutting it to a rough shape with a saw and then shaping it on a grinder, or roughing it out a CNC mill and then finishing on the grinder. Does this change whether the blade is handmade or not? There's no difference in the end product, so I would have to go with no.

 

My point is simply that the legislation is not specific to Nihonto, and as such, specific knowledge of Nihonto is not necessary to prove the exemption. The only blade definitely not hand made by traditional methods is a stamped sheet metal blade. Ultimately the real restriction is on cheap, low quality blades, which are likely to be used as weapons.

 

If we are trying to assess the manufacturing method of an item, "A", and I describe how it would be made by traditional methods and you (as the engineer) then describe how it would be made by modern machine tools; have I proven it was made by traditional methods?

 

If you weren't there to explain how it could be made with modern machine tools, would I have proven anything in the above example?

 

If, on the other hand, we are trying to assess the manufacturing method of item, "B", and I describe how it would be made by traditional methods, and you then explain that it could not have been made by any non-traditional method; has anything been proven?

 

Would the same thing have been proven if the explanation of traditional methods had not been provided?

 

 

Quote

In the past, Border Force have occasionally not recognised Token Society members as experts. Or auction houses in the U.K.  have also been conservative.
Sometimes, auction houses or border force have preferred to use the option /opinions of polishers but that also becomes problematic if there is no traditionally trained polisher around or at least the polisher cannot prove they are traditionally trained or have a certificate or attestation form some authoritative organisation. The polisher might be very good or experienced but proving it to or accepting it as fact by a Court might a different matter.

 

I concur. This is the point I was making. It's not about who is really the expert, but rather who will be accepted as the expert and trusted by the court on that basis. Many people will fit the bill as an expert witness, but there's the issue of availability, rates and expenses. There's no need for a world class expert, but only for someone who is accepted by the court as impartial, trustworthy, and more knowledgable than anyone else in attendance. For clarity for the sake of anyone overseas accustomed to a different system, the UK system does not allow for each side to bring in their own biased experts, but rather calls for a single, mutually acceptable expert witness who's allegiance is to the court and not to either side (irrespective of who is paying him).

 

In the higher courts there's a process by which you commission an expert report months in advance of the trial and provide it to the other side. They then pose their questions and seek clarification from the expert witness, and the answers to these matters are incorporated into the final report supplied by the expert at trial. This way there is no real need for the expert to attend the trial and both sides are aware of the expert testimony ahead of time, which is useful in reaching out of court resolutions.

 

This type of system is seemingly not in place in the magistrates court and I'm not sure what happens if the expert is not available on the day to give evidence in person. I have no experience or knowledge of this, but my (uninformed) inclination is to seek an expert who can attend and give oral evidence on the day, even if they are a lower tier expert. This can of course be in addition to other evidence, such as a written report by a more esteemed expert who is unable to attend in person (which may or may not be accepted as expert witness evidence).

 

Quote

Authenticating the papers and proving not forgeries: can be done directly on the phone and by fax (you read that correctly) with the NBTHK. It is not straightforward (and good luck finding people there who know English well and are willing to step up) but can be done. I have used an agent in the past for that (Japanese and English speaking dealer might do it). 

 

How does an individual prove this authentication to the court?
Wouldn't we need a trusted impartial 3rd party to confirm to the court that the papers were authentic and that they had been in touch with the NBTHK to confirm this?

Presumably a legal professional could also have the papers authenticated and give his word, on the record, to having verified their validity. In the case of a litigant in person, it seems like low hanging fruit for the opposing barrister. I am of course not a barrister or a legal professional of any kind, but I would certainly look to undermine the papers if I were the opposing barrister and it would be quite difficult to defend if preparations hadn't already been made.

 

Quote

Proving age: well also carbon-14 dating (AMS) is possible but someone will have to swallow a bitter pill for it. Of course, the issue is that a small sample needs to be taken and converted to graphite. Would I recommend this for a Juyo sword - hmmm, doubt one would want someone to mess with their sword unless it desperately needs polishing or a sacrifice can be made somewhere on the nakago.
 

 

I don't think radiocarbon dating would be accurate to determine age for the majority of antique swords. The half-life of radiocarbon is 5730 years, so the acceptable range would be from around 1/10th to 10x that length of time; approximately 573 - 57,300 years. It would be something, but papers, documentation, provenance and other standard historical records would likely be the best way to establish things. To be pedantic, you're really dating the wood, which was used to produce the charcoal, which was used in the tatara to produce the steel. Antique steel does not necessarily mean antique sword.

 

Quote

The best form of non-invasive evidence I can suggest is relying on the NBTHK/ NTHK certificate. Next would be an assessment by perhaps a panel of independent representatives such as a Museum specialist, polishers and ToKen Society members (effectively a mini shinsa in the U.K.) acknowledging that this is how it is done in Japan when a blade enters their territory (for the issue of a torokusho) and also admitting that any such U.K. based panel will be grossly inferior to the Japanese equivalent. 

 

I  concur that NBTHK certificates and existing documentation are the key pieces of evidence, my point really was they they are not in English and they need some unpacking. It's entirely reasonable for the border force and the court to not trust a translation and explanation provided by the person wanting to import a (potentially illegal) weapon. A professor of Japanese studies (for instance) would be able to quickly get to grips with what the NBTHK is and explain this to the court; read and interpret the documents, etc. Most importantly they could be trusted to understand the documents and to communicate their content accurately and in an unbiased way.

[Shogun8]

On 2/26/2022 at 8:43 AM, Paz said:

Totally agree Alex this is what I missed out when mine went tits up. 

 

I wrote "100 year old antique 9706.00.00.00 customs tarrif".

 

I mentioned nothing about details on who and when made it or how much I paid gbp.

 

I plan to contact the chairman of the token society sometime this weekend to make him aware. And see if the society can provide any written documentation,  which can be used to present to customs at any issue. 

 

Regards 

I think the correct tariff code is 9706.00.00.90 - at least this is the one I have been using for many years without issue.

[mas4t0]

To clean up after my prior posts, I have no doubt that the court will find in Tony's favour (if it goes that far without being resolved). You are in excellent hands and will likely get this resolved before it gets to court. The questions I posed before are not real questions I'm asking you, just things it's worth ensuring you can confidently answer if it does go to court.

[Paz]

17 hours ago, Shogun8 said:

I think the correct tariff code is 9706.00.00.90 - at least this is the one I have been using for many years without issue.

Apparently this has now changed according to another thread. To 9706.100.00. 

 

I wish to ask @Lareon. Both these swords came from USA, and I gather two were packed Into once container /box. 

 

Did the invoice declare how much you paid? And did the swords arrive in London ? 

 

What I gather is that border force went by the words saying "machine made" and two being packed together. You must be absolutely furious at the sellers and the problems they have caused by writing that on the front paperwork. Have you reached out to the seller for any compensation for what is there mistake, and putting you through this. It seems  that  border force have taken the sellers words for it , over yours. 

 

But I'm wondering shouldn't have bf seen how much you paid and thought about it. 

 

And I have been pondering the same thing, who can be accepted as a trusted authority. By guess is a museum rep, if token society is not always given the recognition that it should . 

 

I've now ordered a wakizashi and have decided to write on the invoice that I am a token society member along with their website. 

 

I really wish you the best Tony. 

[Baba Yaga]

Like everything else, this is going to be a LOT more problematic going forward. Take note and be aware.  

[Paz]

57 minutes ago, Baba Yaga said:

Like everything else, this is going to be a LOT more problematic going forward. Take note and be aware.  

 

Problematic going forward how exactly, please elaborate.

 

Thing is some members have managed to get their items from Japan without an issue into the UK , or having to pay duties. I beleive it comes down to what you write on the invoice,  weather its attached to the front so it can be read. And then it's who deals with it at customs. DHL are hit and miss and are not clear on their import policy. While parcelforce seem to work provided you give them enough information. 

 

What I gather from Tony's unique situation Is that the auction house did not state at all what the item was, nor provide any further info which would be treated suspiciously by border force. And this lead to Tony having to complete the paperwork himself and provide invoices. 

 

I was asked for a copy of the invoice by parcelforce customs even though they were attached to the front. But all I said was antique over a 100 years old. But they were never seized. 

 

The best way to do this as most others would agree, and one member recently did with success is. 

 

Invoice attached to front 

 

 Antique over .....years handforged 

Date of manufacture 

Name of Smith 

Customs tariff code 

How much paid in gbp 

Purpose of use ( private collection) 

And possibly a copy of hozon papers attached to front. 

 

[Baba Yaga]

21 hours ago, Paz said:

 

Problematic going forward how exactly, please elaborate.

Customs tariff code 

 

 

Art - Nihonto - Antique weapons - etc. has a Customs tariff code. That Code "maybe" lumped into other Customs tariff codes. That's how counties work, they don't care. Whatever is easier.

This may happen to all countries, not just the UK.  It's not that bad YET, but... In America we have guns and many people don't don't like that. I like those rights! IMOP I can't believe countries find edged knifes illegal. 

[Lareon]

Update for everyone.


Well I tried to contact border force and resolve the issue outside of the court but that has been to no avail even with a ton of documentation and evidence they have not replied.

Unfortunately I have had a second package seized with 4 items in, 3 traditional old blades and one mantetsu.

Due to this I will most likely be stopping collecting in the manner I have been and only purchase from the UK.

the total value of my seized packages now amounts to $10k 

I must be on some kind of list because I made sure everything was absolutely perfect with this one. 

I'm not really sure what else to say except I will update on the outcome of Both cases as I will also be pursuing this one too.

Best of luck collecting everyone, I will still be lurking around but wont have anything new to show until the outcome of these cases as I wont be buying anything more for now.






 

[PNSSHOGUN]

That is terrible news Tony, I hope sanity and the law prevail against these little weasels.

[Lareon]

Yes I'm really unsure what has gone wrong in this whole process and thought it was a one time stupid mistake on the part of border force. It seems to not be an isolated case so I'm unsure what has happened as i have imported many times before. I must be on some kind of blanket black list now...

[FZ1]

Was this also from the USA Tony?  Was it the same carrier or a different one?

 

Jon

 

[Lareon]

Different Carrier, UPS  and USA 

[FZ1]

Different couriers, but both from USA.  Have you imported any swords from anywhere else since the first seizure? (e.g. Japan?)  I'm just wondering if the common factor is not you, but imports from the USA which are (possibly) less common than sword imports from Japan so get more scrutiny?

 

Although having said that, I don't know why HMRC would focus their attention on imports from one country over another.

 

I wonder if anyone else has successfully imported swords from the USA to UK recently?

 

Sorry - that's doesn't really add any value to the discussion, I was just thinking out loud.

[Paz]

This is an awful read Tony. And I feel for you. As a new collector in the UK I'm also now put off from collecting in general, especially with the added stress of these inconsistent seizing of items. The UK nihonto market in my opinion is just not attractive as Japan/ USA  in terms of availability and price.

 

I recently imported a blade from Japan using UPS,  (got it last week). I had no issues and UPS sent me the import document on email which I completed. The sword arrived a week after being sent from Japan. Maybe Jon has a point about these being country specific.

 

The only reason i can guess why they may have seized your blades again. Is  the people your buying from in the USA are not labelling or completing the paperwork correctly. Are these the same auction house as last time ?

 

Did UPS send you an email asking for completing of import documents? 

 

Cant imagine how you feel. And I'm very sure you will win the case.

 

Kind regards 

Paz 

 

[Paz]

2 hours ago, Paz said:

This is an awful read Tony. And I feel for you. As a new collector in the UK I'm also now put off from collecting in general, especially with the added stress of these inconsistent sword laws. And the UK nihonto market in my opinion is just not attractive as Japan in terms of availability and price. 

 

I recently imported a blade from Japan using UPS,  (got it last week). I had no issues and UPS sent me the import document on email which I completed. The sword arrived a week after being sent from Japan. 

 

And believe me I was stressed knowing it could be seized after hearing your case. 

 

The only reason i can guess why they may have seized your blades again. Is either they have a mark on you, the people your buying from in the USA are not labelling or completing the paperwork correctly. But this is from UPS and not DHL like last time. 

 

Did UPS send you an email asking for completing of import documents? 

I do wonder if it's to do with having more than one blade in a parcel 

2 hours ago, Paz said:

 

Cant imagine how you feel. 

 

Kind regards 

Paz 

 

 

[NewB]

Terrible to say the least. I hope that you either get them or they return them to the sellers (rather than have customs seize them), if no other options are available.

 

by the way I hear similar stuff from other countries also.. you saved us a ton of trouble with this thread as we were going to auction the majority of our collections with my friend.. that would have been a DISASTER! UGH..

 

Cheers 🍻 

 

J.

[Toryu2020]

Stop me when I achieve Britishness; "2500 Bloody Pounds!?!" now "Almost 8,000 bloody pounds!?!"

 

Unbelievable - we are all behind you on this, if you need letters of support just ask, if you need letters from the NTHK just ask.

 

-tch

[ChrisW]

You've become so British, the queen has decided to adopt you!

 And I agree, this is disgusting. Those responsible should lose their jobs over this.

[Brian]

Embarrassing for the UK.
Won't share any more of my feelings about the place, aside from the fact that my partner is British, and I/We will NEVER go back there.

[FZ1]

7 hours ago, Toryu2020 said:

Stop me when I achieve Britishness; "2500 Bloody Pounds!?!" now "Almost 8,000 bloody pounds!?!"

 

Nowhere near Thomas - "pounds" = "quid" in the vernacular! 

 

Jon

 

[Alex A]

Whoa, its not that bad!, most stuff gets here ok.

 

OP, must be said, BAD idea ordering more swords without resolving your initial issue first, looks like they have you red flagged.

 

Saying that though, sure you will get all your items back when you have your day in court.

[Paz]

3 hours ago, Alex A said:

Whoa, its not that bad!, most stuff gets here ok.

 

OP, must be said, BAD idea ordering more swords without resolving your initial issue first, looks like they have you red flagged.

 

Saying that though, sure you will get all your items back when you have your day in court.

 

Alex I have a funny feeling its do with importing more than one sword in a parcel. 

Border force must have thought hes arming a militia or something.  

I got a new blade without any issues last week from UPS. Very professional and just got the job done. But what surprises me about the second confiscation is that UPS have their own custom clearances. 🤔 

 

Either way I look forward to Tony winning this case and putting the border force to shame, which will hopefully make them think twice about seizing legal antique swords.  And actually doing more homework, and not ignoring information. If they lose financially then it's a big win for all of us.

 

I'm hoping something positive will come for all UK collectors 

 

Regards 

[Baba Yaga]

13 hours ago, Toryu2020 said:

Stop me when I achieve Britishness; "2500 Bloody Pounds!?!" now "Almost 8,000 bloody pounds!?!"

 

Unbelievable - we are all behind you on this, if you need letters of support just ask, if you need letters from the NTHK just ask.

 

-tch

 

Don't you have enough to worry about in SF? They want all your guns, knives and spoons just like UK land.