Huge auction in Australia with more than 100 blades

[Ray Singer]

1 hour ago, Bazza said:

Georg,

Two completely different news items.  The first has nothing at all to do with the auction.  Its about the lost National Treasure sword NORISHIGE found in Australia and written up here on the Board.  See in the articles section "The Lost Norishige" by Ian Brooks.

BaZZa.

 

I was worried for a moment when I saw the reference to this being Ian's estate. Glad that is not the case. 

[Kiipu]

The Australian auction was from the Rod Bellars collection.  Some of these swords at one time belonged to Donald, of F&G fame.  If I am not mistaken, the F&G photo's of his collection were taken by @Bazza.

Historic Arms and Militaria Lifetime Collection of Rod Bellars

[roger dundas]

Can I be flippant here ?

I reckon Ian is happy about it not being his estate as well.

I don't know Ian but know of him as he is a good mate of Bazza's who I can tell you is also still well, alive and kicking and still enjoying a small whisky tasting along with his love of swords.

Roger j

[PNSSHOGUN]

Any of us would be very happy if that was their sword collection and those prices were realised.

[Chrometank]

Hello my friends,  this is my first post, I  am from  Australia and I bought two of the swords on offer last night. The two I bought were some of the less expensive ones on offer,  I bid on quite a few but the bidding was hot and I only won the cheap swords.

Hopefully when they arrive the knowledgeable folks here will let me know exactly what I bought  !

I have included a few of the auction photos of the swords 

All the best

Paul 

[roger dundas]

Yes that is so very true John.

It is just unfortunate that is if it's your 'deceased estate' then you don't get to share the pleasure of seeing the 'chickens come home to roost', the proof of the wisdom of your pursuing these lumps of steel with hard earned money that has a financial reward as well as an emotional and intellectual one.

I'm not being critical of your comment by the way, it's just that at my age I already have one foot in the grave and hope that I can leave some reasonable asset behind too ? Not too sure about me though- not as smart as many of you going by your posts, not dumb either but somewhere between (I'm hoping).

I've had fun writing the above- hope you don't mind me indulging myself. Rub it out if you want.

Roger j

[Lareon]

@Chrometank

 

do you have the link to the 2 swords? saves use searching through them all

 

1.https://www.lloydsonline.com.au/LotDetails.aspx?smode=0&aid=29125&lid=3329997&pgn=2&pgs=100

 

2. https://www.lloydsonline.com.au/LotDetails.aspx?smode=0&aid=29125&lid=3329811&pgn=1&pgs=100

[PNSSHOGUN]

11 minutes ago, roger dundas said:

Yes that is so very true John.

It is just unfortunate that is if it's your 'deceased estate' then you don't get to share the pleasure of seeing the 'chickens come home to roost', the proof of the wisdom of your pursuing these lumps of steel with hard earned money that has a financial reward as well as an emotional and intellectual one.

I'm not being critical of your comment by the way, it's just that at my age I already have one foot in the grave and hope that I can leave some reasonable asset behind too ? Not too sure about me though- not as smart as many of you going by your posts, not dumb either but somewhere between (I'm hoping).

I've had fun writing the above- hope you don't mind me indulging myself. Rub it out if you want.

Roger j

Hi Roger, I was joking about the statement, not arguing. The majority of these swords were pretty poor, both in condition & quality. So it is mysterious & comical why they fetched such astronomical sums in comparison to what similar swords sell for on the usual markets.

 

@Chrometank look forward to seeing better pictures of your two swords, I think many of us had grand schemes to buy a number of the swords but were promptly blown out of the water.

[Chrometank]

1 hour ago, Lareon said:

@Chrometank

 

do you have the link to the 2 swords? saves use searching through them all

 

1.https://www.lloydsonline.com.au/LotDetails.aspx?smode=0&aid=29125&lid=3329997&pgn=2&pgs=100

 

2. https://www.lloydsonline.com.au/LotDetails.aspx?smode=0&aid=29125&lid=3329811&pgn=1&pgs=100

Thank you  !

[Chrometank]

58 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Hi Roger, I was joking about the statement, not arguing. The majority of these swords were pretty poor, both in condition & quality. So it is mysterious & comical why they fetched such astronomical sums in comparison to what similar swords sell for on the usual markets.

 

@Chrometank look forward to seeing better pictures of your two swords, I think many of us had grand schemes to buy a number of the swords but were promptly blown out of the water.

Yes, I thought the prices might start falling the further along the auction went but the prices started going up towards the end ! Yes will take better photos when they arrive,  cheers 

[roger dundas]

John/ PNSSHOGUN- All is good and your comment was quite right. 

I was just taking the opportunity to segue into some follow up thoughts about what we have accumulated as collectors and what remains. I might have done it clumsily ? I trust it was in order.

Now I will STFU or putting it more nicely- retire for a bit.

Roger j

[PNSSHOGUN]

3 hours ago, roger dundas said:

John/ PNSSHOGUN- All is good and your comment was quite right. 

I was just taking the opportunity to segue into some follow up thoughts about what we have accumulated as collectors and what remains. I might have done it clumsily ? I trust it was in order.

Now I will STFU or putting it more nicely- retire for a bit.

Roger j

Hi Roger, you do raise a good point. This was more of an accumulation of sword, rather than a specific collection. So the question remains if a proper collection of similar size were to go to auction would we see higher or lower prices? Would the interest and excitement be the same? I wonder if many of the high bids were due to the ambiguity of the listings and the prospect of "diamonds in the rough"?

[Promo]

Oh sorry for my confusion. That is what you get for translating a Japanese news using Google Translator and understanding an item to go from Australia to Japan from an estate with additionally the picture looking very similar to the one of an auction company in Australia that is just selling an estate. Very happy to know I was wrong.

 

Far from the expert, but I can only agree that this appears to have been an accumulation rather than a collection (this applied to basically anything that guy has had). He bought of any condition of any make as long as it is arms related. Plus it seems he preferred quantity over quality.

 

Not noted down the results for many items, but the few were all VERY expensive. Since others did, can anyone share the final results of all items I had linked to in the starting post? Any other items that went way overpriced and might be worth mentioning? And did someone in here actually buy an item, except for the one that was already posted?

[Chrometank]

Yes he was an accumulator ! I think there was around 250 swords for sale. The guy was an accountant, I heard his artillery auction realized around 1 million dollars.  He had masses of captured Japanese equipment and clothing, I don't think the swords were any different, just part of his accumulation. Hopefully a lot of it went to museums 

Cheers 

[PJFC]

Hi Everyone I'm new here and from Australia I was watching the auction last night and had particular interest in lot numbers 503 and 555 Links below.

 

I noticed there was a post on this site mentioning Capitan Masahira Ikeda. Lot 503 makes mention of this name is this the same sword?

 

Can anyone tell me more about these?

Thanks

 

Paul

 

https://www.lloydsonline.com.au/LotDetails.aspx?smode=2&lid=3329776

 

https://www.lloydsonline.com.au/LotDetails.aspx?smode=2&lid=3329841

[Bencld]

Yes, my brother got a very nice gendai masakatsu 1.5m smith and a kunimori (yasuhiro 1.8m smith) for what I reckon is a good price.

 I missed on the ones I was interested in.

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Hello Paul ,

I have seen Captain Ikeda's sword a couple of times over the years and could have had it with a little effort . I was offered it by the man who bought it back from the war. It is signed Kaneuji and dated 1300 odd . My belief is that it is a showa period fake . The mount is interesting though and is the one that I referenced in my piece about the swords from Buka Island . The price that this sword achieved was crazy.

 

The Masanori has promise but you would need to compare the mei with genuine pieces . To me the nakago lacked the colour and crisp  well cut mei that you would expect on a better quality shinto piece( which this purports to be ).. Overall this was a good package and worth a punt at the right price

Ian Brooks

[PJFC]

17 minutes ago, Ian B3HR2UH said:

Hello Paul ,

I have seen Captain Ikeda's sword a couple of times over the years and could have had it with a little effort . I was offered it by the man who bought it back from the war. It is signed Kaneuji and dated 1300 odd . My belief is that it is a showa period fake . The mount is interesting though and is the one that I referenced in my piece about the swords from Buka Island . The price that this sword achieved was crazy.

 

The Masanori has promise but you would need to compare the mei with genuine pieces . To me the nakago lacked the colour and crisp  well cut mei that you would expect on a better quality shinto piece( which this purports to be ).. Overall this was a good package and worth a punt at the right price

Ian Brooks

Thank you Ian for your detailed reply I'm fairly new to all of this and am keen to learn more. What do you mean by showa period fake?

 

Cheers

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Hi Paul , 

there are swords that were made during the war by the Japanese which have famous makers names on them . Typically they are signed by Kotetsu and have a dragon or other horimono . I once had one in naval mounts with a dragon horimono that was signed Sa Yukihide . I eventually decided that it was a showa era blade with a famous makers name put on it .Others are signed with fictitious makers names usually with a lord of  ( kami ) prefix . I imagine the Japanese smiths and dealers could sell these to officers buying a sword , for more than a blade signed with the smiths true name.  That is probably overstating it as the blades are most likely factory produced ones.

 

The freshness of the chisel cuts on the Kaneuji signature together with the new looking tang ,lack of forging faults and odd looking tempering make me conclude that it is one of these faked blades .

 

Ian Brooks

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hi Paul, this may be of interest to you regarding Showa Gimei: http://www.nihontocraft.com/Yamamoto_NBTHK.html

[Stegel]

For those  who are interested, the finalised prices (In Australian Dollars and add 16.5% for your 'out of pocket' cost)  :

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stegel]

sorry didn't get final prices from Lots 633-698, only prices from about a few minutes to about 45min before close.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lareon]

Thanks stegal!

[PNSSHOGUN]

Lots 519 and 573 will be particularly sobering to the new owners.....

[PJFC]

Thank you Stegal for posting the final prices. 

 

I would like to learn more about the groups thoughts on the higher priced item's listed below your thoughts on what was well priced and what wasn't would be of great interest. 

Also any thoughts on items that were realised at a good price or under valued. 

Cheers

Paul

 

LOT

500 $7800    https://www.lloydsonline.com.au/LotDetails.aspx?smode=0&aid=29125&lid=3329773&pgn=1&pgs=100&altype=1

 

503 $7500    https://www.lloydsonline.com.au/LotDetails.aspx?smode=0&aid=29125&lid=3329776&pgn=1&pgs=100&altype=1

 

518 $10555   https://www.lloydsonline.com.au/LotDetails.aspx?smode=0&aid=29125&lid=3329804&pgn=1&pgs=100&altype=1

 

519 $8700     https://www.lloydsonline.com.au/LotDetails.aspx?smode=0&aid=29125&lid=3329805&pgn=1&pgs=100&altype=1

 

546 $32000  https://www.lloydsonline.com.au/LotDetails.aspx?smode=0&aid=29125&lid=3329832&pgn=1&pgs=100&altype=1

 

555 $7200    https://www.lloydsonline.com.au/LotDetails.aspx?smode=0&aid=29125&lid=3329841&pgn=1&pgs=100&altype=1

 

573 $7787    https://www.lloydsonline.com.au/LotDetails.aspx?smode=0&aid=29125&lid=3329859&pgn=1&pgs=100&altype=1

[PNSSHOGUN]

518 looks to be made by Kojima Kanemichi, his work usually fetches a few thousand. No idea why it went that high.

 

573 has excellent Kai Gunto mounts with Mon.....and a Mumei Showato with Seki stamp. Current market value.....3000AUD?

 

There may be provenance attached to these two known by other collectors, but not to the auction house.

[Stephen]

Freaking crazy!

[WillFalstaff]

“Ah yes, Gandalf the Grey, that is what they used to call me. I am Gandalf the White.”

(I did not bid on this auction, thought the temptation was *almost* overpowering 😈

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Hi Paul , I will comment on some of the swords .

 

Donald Barnes was a Victorian collector from the 1970's right through until about ten years ago when ill health affected him . He was a real bower bird and collected anything Japanese from WW2 . He was quite knowledgeable about Japanese militaria and military mountings but wasn't much of a blade man . I doubt that he could read the signatures but this didn't matter too much as his wife was Japanese . He had a big room full of stuff including a Japanese skull which was particularly bizarre given his wifes nationality . Donald didn't have much of an eye for quality though  .Most of the older collectors here have Donald Barnes stories . I sold swords to him and a number at the sale were ones that I used to own.

 

Rod Bellars obviously had a huge militaria collection . I saw this about ten years ago . At that time he had lots 503 and 546 along with about thirty other swords . The thirty were all no good ,fake signatures poor condition or poor quality . Rod knew virtually nothing about swords and I had the impression that anything good that he did have had been winkled out of him by those with more knowledge . A friend has a fine Moritoshi that he got from Rod. This was restored and went Tokubetsu Hozon

 

Donald Barnes's health deteriorated and he eventually sold all of his swords to Rod a couple of years ago . Most of the swords at the auction were ex Donald Barnes and I mention all of this to give credit to Donald.

 

Onto the swords.

 

Lot 500. This is a naval kyugunto that I used to own . I swapped it to Donald for another Naval Kyugunto that I still have The blade on the auctioned sword was nice but it had a number of cracks along the shinogi and shinogi ji . These were perpendicular to the cutting edge like hagire but on the shinogi. Like all of these swords the price it sold for was way too high .

 

Lot 503 . As I mentioned above I was offered this by the man who bought it back from the war . He wanted too much so I passed . Rod obviously later bought it . The blade is signed Kaneuji and is dated 1331 which it can never be . I feel sure the blade is a showa fake .

 

Lot 518. For years I wanted to own a " Generals sword " but never found one . Then thirty or so years ago Donald turned this one up !  It has an interesting story . The man who bought it back to Australia was on the Tokyo docks on the day of the surrender on the Missouri . The Japanese surrender party had to take their sword off at the wharf before they were taken out to the Missouri for the formal surrender . Their swords were left in a pile on the dock. The Australian who was there asked the Americans guarding the swords if he could have one and wound up with this one.

The sword has a Generals tassel and there is a silver owners name "  Hasegawa " on the kabuto gane. There was no officer named Hasegawa who surrendered on the Missouri.  A Major General Hasegawa was in command of the Kempetai though 

The blade is in good condition ,is mumei and probably shin shinto . If not for the tassel and background story I wouldn't keep the actual sword itself . However it is a piece that I have always wanted and I could afford it so I paid what I had to to get it.

I wlll write about the other four  swords  soon .

 

Ian Brooks

[PJFC]

Again thank you for your detailed response I really appreciate the time you have taken and look forward to hearing about the other four.