Deep or shallow ?

[Link]

Hi all, from what I've read I only see sori described as shallow or deep and from my un-trained eye that dosn't tell me a lot so I was wondering what would be considered deep measured in cm on a katana with a nagasa of aprx. 70 cm ? I've been trying to connect the dots from the blade shape,hamon ect.ect to the correct den mino, yamato ect. the quandary I have is the blade is early edo and dosn't really seem to match the den style or school it came from the den was soshu which seems to have lost most of it's characteristics by the shinto period (if I'm understanding what I've been reading) It would be easy to and maybe correct to call this blade wakimono but I'm just trying to expand my limited sword smarts . Anyway I know what a 2cm sori looks like on a 70cm katana but I don't know if thats considered deep or shallow.

Thanks

[Link]

Another question not worthy of reply ? Can some one at least tell me why there's no opinions on this ? If there's something in print (english) I will read it. If it's a completely stupid question let me know. I would say that 2 cm on a 70 cm sword would be considered deep (now you guys have me talking to my self) but how would some one with no knowledge of this find out.

Thanks

[Marius]

Another question not worthy of reply ? Can some one at least tell me why there's no opinions on this ? If there's something in print (english) I will read it. If it's a completely stupid question let me know. I would say that 2 cm on a 70 cm sword would be considered deep (now you guys have me talking to my self) but how would some one with no knowledge of this find out.

Thanks

 

Curvature is in the eye of the beholder, so to say... It is always an individual feeling. Hence the silence.

[drbvac]

Larry:

 

Betcha reading Yumoto's Handbook ! Sori are usually just measured in cm and deep and shallow are relative terms like water - deep for some is over your head not the mariana trench - but I know what you are saying.

 

The depth which is a measure of curvature can give hints as to the school and era of the blade and some will say older blades have deeper sori and the curvature is closer to the tang. Newer blades may be shallow sori and max depth nearer the middle. In my opinion 2 cm is medium if in the middle - but you have to look at it as one descriptor of many for someone who can't see it.

 

Can't help you any more and maybe if you do a search of the forum you will find more info 't bo

 

ps It sometimes takes a longer time for the "pros" to answer questions and if they have given the answer many times before they sometimes don't bother. Give em some time or wait - sooner or later someone will take a stab at it and if like me - I am wrong - someone will correct it!

[hybridfiat]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the impression I get from reading about schools and classifing swords is that the smiths did not have an exact template. This is contrary to our modern desire to pigeonhole everything using some form of measure set in stone.

The smiths didnt have a set of standards similar to our international standard system.

They made long,medium and short swords and tantos, depending on the need or desire of the client. They made in a style but not to a fixed template. Some had a lot of curve and some didnt. But I dont get the impression that a particular school said to it's members, you will have a curve that starts exactly here and a sori of this much.

Is this a fair comment?

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

The depth of a sori is dependant on the length. a 2cm sori on a 60cm blade is deep, the same on a 80cm is shallow.

[Brian]

And I think, as mentioned, that it is an overall feeling you get when viewing it too. 2cm on a 75cm blade that is thin and slender would look like a lot, but if the blade was sturdy and wide and strong, then 2cm wouldn't look deep.

No real answer to the question of deep or shallow. It has to be judged by looking at the sword in general.

 

Brian

[Jean]

Depends also on the era, a Kanbun blade with a 2cm sori is deep sori

[Clive Sinclaire]

Gentlemen

Whilst this discussion is centered on the depth of zori, one should not forget the type of zori, which is arguably more important. I mean, saki-zori, naka-zori (tori-zori) and koshizori. Of course, all these may be altered, as can the depth of zori by any suriage that may have taken place. This is an important kantei point it is also the zori which might give the first hint of a saiha.

Just my 2 cents worth

Clive

[Ted Tenold]

I'd agree with the concensus here, and Clive makes a good point that curvature can occasionally be misleading (or perhaps even leading ).

 

Sori, along with other elements of measurement are a matter of period, school, condition, etc.. Conditionally speaking, sori can be altered as in the case of Naginata/Nagamaki Naoshi, or in tanto where polishing or repair can drastically alter the sori from musori to uchizori.

 

What shallow sori would be in some periods would be considered deep in others. Kanbun period is generally regarded as being a rather straightish looking sori, though completely straight blades are fairly uncommon, therefore deeper sori for that period would be considered shallow in other periods, but does that make a Kanbun period sword with musori a "shallow sori" for Kanbun?? :lol:

 

In the end, it goes back to the very first thing we should all try to identify in a sword, and that is the period, and although sori is a good indicator, it's really only part of the entire shape, and there's other shape elements combined with the sori that provide markers to the answer. When the period is identified as a combination of shape elements, then sori can be somewhat re-evaluated for that period in particular.

 

Just my thouhts.

[Link]

Thanks for the replies all of em make sense. I saw a beautiful blade this week-end at a knatei session and the sori or lack of sori in this case I think really put people going in the wrong direction (good fun for the guy who owned the sword !) any way the blade turned out to be shin shinto I think most had it pegged for early edo, So as sori goes you just never know.