Interesting tsuba but unknown carver (Natsuo den ?)

[Marc BROQUIN]

Hello all,

I post this tsuba for its spectacular carving. I cannot decipher the kanjis but I am sure many of you will be able to give their ideas.

kind regards

Marc

[Brian]

Marc,

I always find your taste, knowledge and willingness to share amazing.

Stunning tsuba..as are all that you post here. I imagine you have a superb collection.

I look forward to hearing more about this one.

 

Brian

[Nobody]

This is only my guess about the mei. I am not sure about several kanji including 夏 and 鎬.

 

寛齋夏雄 鎬 (Kansai, Natsuo, ?)

I cannot understand 鎬 in that context. There was a painter whose name was Mori Kansai (Ref. http://edb.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/exhibit/ ... /Mori.html ), although I do not know if he is this Kansai or not.

 

慶應四戊辰 (Keio 4 Tsuchinoe-Tatsu) - 1868

初夏 (Shoka) – early summer

[John A Stuart]

A wonderful tsuba. Koichi san, may I suggest that the kanji after Natsuo is not Ko, shinogi 鎬, but, instead the kanji Sen, ho(ru), for engrave, carve, chisel, sculpture, inscribe. Ref # 6349, J6f43, M40924. Meaning carved by Natsuo. I can't access this kanji to print it here. John

[Markus]

Yes, John you are right.

The character is: 鐫

 

BTW: Kansai (寛斎) was one of Natsuo´s pseudonyms.

[Nobody]

..... , but, instead the kanji Sen, ho(ru), for engrave, carve, chisel, sculpture, inscribe.

Thanks John, I have learned the kanji today.

[Eric H]

A very fine Tsuba, and if it's shoshin Natsuo :D

 

Eric

[John A Stuart]

I still find this tsuba appealing, but, don't hate me, of the 26 or so signatures by Natsuo I am looking at none match in critical ways. The 夏 natsu kanji in sosho form does not match. There is no mei recorded that ends in 鐫 ho. He was 40 when this was made and the mei should be well in line with others.

Now, I am just a student and my opinion has little weight, so, I await other judgement.

[reinhard]

This is a nice tsuba, but NATSUO is definitely the wrong trace. No matter what the mei says: NATSUO's workmanship is far superior to this one.

 

reinhard

[Marc BROQUIN]

"Hello all,

I post this tsuba for its spectacular carving. I cannot decipher the kanjis but I am sure many of you will be able to give their ideas.

kind regards

Marc"

 

Hello all,

When I wrote those words, I must say that I had some ideas "behind my head" as we say in french.

I was nearly sure it was not from NATSUO because the carving had not this natural mixture of simplicity and complexity of NATSUO (Reinhard is right, workmanship doesn't fit).

I was sure also that the 3rd kanji was O; the same O that appears in Natsuo. it was a track for me.

Who is able (by tradition) to use a part of the master name : one of his students.

So I checked yesterday with all your information you gave in the different answers and found :

As far as my research is complete the only student having taken the O from Natsuo and having a simple kanji for the begining is ...... FUMI O (the FUMI equivalent to BUN in BUNSEI) in other words SEKIBUN III, who was a student of NATSUO and having taken this name FUMI O.

And there is at the end of the book related to NATSUO a tsuba made by FUMI O with this signature KANSAI (which was one of the artist "family" name of NATSUO) FUMI O.

Of course this signature being relatively rare, and fitting partially with this one of the Natsuo book, I cannot say it is shoshin. But I have the impression it is because of the quality signed by a "second gun" artist and not by the master.

I let those comments to your appreciations.

Anyhow and it is true : what is written on the reverse ? Perhaps Koichi San could give us the solution ?

Kind regards to all

Marc

[Marc BROQUIN]

Hello all,

 

Sorry for the obverse you deciphered Koichi San. I think I was a bit sleepy !

 

I checked this morning on the Haynes and it is said that SEKIBUN III born in 1869 worked with NATSUO around 1885. It does not fit with the date : he was not born !!!

 

What else ?

best regards

Marc

[Eric H]

For comparison

4 Tsuba by Natsuo - Museum of fine Arts, Boston

 

Eric

[Curran]

Interesting thread. Any more ideas?

[Ford Hallam]

hmmm...interesting comparison with the Boston museum examples. However, it remains to be seen which, if any..., are ultimately appraised as being by Kano Natsuo

 

My immediate doubts would centre on the copper one and the last, the Kwannon.

 

The tsuba with the various panels is, to my knowledge, generally accepted as genuine but the monkey, while sharing some similarities with examples by Natsuo in the Tokyo national museum, seems a bit uninspired to me.

[reinhard]

Agree with Ford,

 

The tsuba with several panels has a good chance of being genuine. (BTW, the others weren't mentioned in Ogawa Morihiro's book, for good reasons, I guess). The "screaming monkey" tries to meet western expectations during early Meiji-period and is lacking NATSUO's grace and dignity. The copper tsuba is an uninspired display of mere craftsmanship, slightly out of proportions and without NATSUO's unique view on a subject. This can be said of the Kwannon-design tsuba even more.

 

reinhard

[Eric H]

I have found in my library the following pictures, unfortunately of poor quality.

Do these examples represent at best the workmanship of Natsuo ?

 

Eric

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Eric

 

the first one might well be genuine and this is one I've not seen before. It's hard to say for sure based on the image though. It's very similar in treatment to a particular style of work of Natsuo's that I personally find very appalling and is a mode of expression that he did far better than anyone else, imo The moon has been over-cleaned though so this gives the piece a rather harsh aspect...

 

The second one is much harder to judge but from what I think I can see of the lines of the waves it appears to be a bit awkward so I'd suggest not by the man.

 

As for the third piece, the kagamibuta with the frog. Absolutely no chance whatever that is genuine...it's fairly generic work, technically competent but not much more than average craft. Certainly not an example of Japanese metal art.

[Brian]

It's very similar in treatment to a particular style of work of Natsuo's that I personally find very appalling...

 

Ford,

Knowing your love of Natsuo's work..I am pretty sure you mean appealing.

 

Brian

[Eric H]

Hi Ford

 

Thank you for your opinion. It is of course almost impossible to give an accurate judgment based on indistinct pictures.

In any case, all examples are genuine Natsuo.

 

The first Tsuba is in the gallery of a Japanese seller, who is well known for his top class items.

 

A deeper search in my library revealed much better pics of the second Tsuba, it's an extremely fine work by Natsuo and was designated Juyo Kodogu in 2000.

In 2004 at Christie's, Estimation 60,000-65,000 GBP. The Lot was not sold.

 

On the other hand Natsuo occasionally made plates for Kagamibuta. This is ex Bushell Collection.

 

Eric

[Ford Hallam]

Thanks for those additional pics, Eric. The front seems reasonably well done, not fantastic though, the dragon is quite weak in my opinion. The claws in particular lack any sort of feeling of power, they're just spikes. The back is as I surmised and the mei is not at all convincing. As for Juyo papers, I prefer to trust the evidence my eyes provide...and perhaps so did the bidders at that auction. If you consider the way the waves are carved on the back, where they splash, it is not well thought out at all. Natsuo never made mistakes like this.

 

You are right about Natsuo making kagamibuta...but this is most definitely not one of them. As I said, this isn't even a particularly inspired bit of craft-work. Just have a closer look at the legs of this unfortunate creature...there is no real modelling there at all. The kebori is also only just competent....while Kano Natsuo was possibly one of the most sensitive handlers of the chisel ever.

 

But of course I suppose we'll have to agree to differ in our estimation of what constitutes the work of one of the greatest masters in this art form.

 

This is a genuine Natsuo kagamibuta that belongs to my friend Mr Ikeda Nagamasa, the togishi. His father was a leading authority on Natsuo and his family still retains a very impressive collection of Natsuo's work. There is a very similar one in the Boston museum of Fine Art.

 

 

and this is greatly enlarged view of a portion of kata-kiri by him on a silver sake cup. The piece you see is about an inch across ( 25mm ) and sake drunk from this cup somehow tastes extra nice :D ...I know

 

 

Hey Brian...thanks for catching me :D , I really must stop dropping those e's

[Eric H]

Ford

 

I agree your reasoning relating to the Kagamibuta's, the differences are obvious, it's like day and night.

 

As for the Juyo-status..... as far as I know there is a panel of (how many people ?) recognized, competent Japanese experts, who are deciding on the status of an art object. It is also well known, the barrier to get over to receive Juyo is very high, for swords and kodogu. Speaking for myself I have full confidence in the wide knowledge and expertise of these gentlemen, and it's my definite belief, that only a handful "Westerners" come close to these Japanese connoisseurs.

 

But everybody feel free to have a mind of one's own.

 

The Lot was most likely not sold because it had an unrealistic estimate : $ 111,000-120,000

 

DEGUSTIBUS NON EST DISPUTANDUM

 

Eric

[Ford Hallam]

I hear what you are saying Eric, regarding Shinsa, and Juyo in particular. I don't think we'll get anywhere debating the accuracy of these sorts of institutions though...there will always be differences of opinion in the arts as long as humans think independently. The mention of the item having been in America for the previous 100 years jogged my memory. I was actually at that auction and remember now the discussion surrounding this piece. I don't recall anyone being particularly impressed or convinced.

 

I've scanned in a few images of some more examples to Natsuo's oeuvre to compare with those we're discussing. I hope this isn't too much of a departure from Marc's initial posts regarding his own tsuba :? Perhaps, if it is, our heroic admin might split this off to form a new topic. Sorry if I've caused any inconvenience. :|

 

The examples I've chosen to show illustrate the development of one particular ( I'd say his most notable ) style of Kano Natsuo. If you compare the first example you posted, Eric, you will see how it fits perfectly within the range of pine tree views he was clearly working through.

 

and a more sophisticated expression of a similar theme.

 

The reverse on this one also shows a remarkably similar treatment of the waterfall.

 

This one is one of my personal favourites. It seems to be powerfully expressive to me.

 

This is one of Natsuo's versions of a monkey in a tree. Not one of his most inspired works admittedly. Perhaps he made it as a commission.

[Ford Hallam]

This last one might give a little idea of how he tended to treat waves and splashing water.

 

 

These examples are taken from one of the most recent publications on his work and is beautifully illustrated, hence these very clear images. Please bear in mind also that the images you see are generally more than twice the size of the actual pieces themselves. I hope they serve to show a little of why he is considered to be such a great sculptor in metal.

 

DEGUSTIBUS NON EST DISPUTANDUM

 

“The critic has to educate the public; the artist has to educate the critic.” Oscar Wilde :D

[myochin]

Dear Ford,

 

Could you please give me the reference of the (most recent) publication on Kano Natsuo that you are referring to.

 

Many thanks,

Paul.

[reinhard]

It's a very thin line between mere craftsmanship and true art. For consideration:

 

reinhard

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Paul,

 

The most recent work, to my knowledge, and the most comprehensive, is the 8 volume "Kano Natsuo Taikan" by Miyake 1990

It's bit pricey at about $2000. I was very fortunate to have been given a set by the author, via my teacher. Prior to that I only had the Kano Natsuo Meihin-shu by Ikeda 1972. That's more reasonably priced at about $70 ~ 80

 

The is also, if you can find a copy, a very nice edition of the "Nihon no Bitjutsu" series. Number 111. It focusses on Natsuo and Unno Shomin. That's obviously in Japanese.

 

The NBTHK had a good article ( in English) on Natsuo also, in edition No 58, ( 1993) written by Mr Kobayashi Terumasa.

[Brian]

Prior to that I only had the Kano Natsuo Meihin-shu by Ikeda 1972. That's more reasonably priced at about $70 ~ 80

 

Either I got ripped on my copy, or that is very undervalued :D

Last copy I saw is about GBP220, and on another site it is valued at 300,00 €

 

I think I paid about $250 and thought I got a good deal. tell me I did! :lol:

 

Brian

[Marc BROQUIN]

Hello All,

 

I am surprised to have generated a so extended discussion on such a subject. And I am also really interested by all the ideas exchanged in so few days.

To come back to the initial discussion : the said tsuba was for sale in a recent auction (March 14th) in France precisely in Montluçon near Moulins (Centre of France). It was certainly the best carving of the auction.

But if the carving is nice, we can see in the karakiri repeated traces of the chisel which is not the mark of an excellent carver. it's why I was sure it was not from Natsuo, together with a certain roughness of the design.

I hoped the signature was from one of his students but I must admit it (according to the carved date): it is most certainely a copy or fake wanting to imitate NATSUO's work.

Thanks to all contributors of this forum. It has allowed me not to buy it !

Friendly, yours

Marc

[Eric H]

Ford

 

Wonderful Tsuba's by Natsuo and excellent fotos - a must to download for thorough study and enjoyment.

 

Natsuo is considered to be the last great master of metal art, famous for his ability of colouring, surface-treatment and modelling.

 

I wonder why he is not represented in collections such as BAUR and COMPTON ? There is one Tsuba listed in the G. OEDER Collection.

 

Looking back at auctions :

Bradford Collection, Sotheby's 20.5.1975 : no Natsuo

Peter Hawkins Collection, Sotheby's 13.10.1977 : 1 Tsuba by Natsuo, attested by Dr. Torigoe, Estimation 1000-1500 GBP - not sold

Backhoff Collection, Sotheby's 27.10.1981 - no Natsuo

Hartmann Collection ?

 

Maybe you have an explanation at hand.

 

Eric

[Lorenzo]

Just to add a book to the list;

 

I have this:

http://www.ejapaneseswords.com/bookpicts.html#natsuo

"Kano Natsuo Meihin Hen" Yoshida and Ikeda.

A comprehensive study of the most acclaimed kinko of the Meiji period, Kano Natsuo. This book covers all the bases, with excellent photos of Natsuo's kodogu, paintings, and kinko work. An amazingly talented artist. Large format. As new, with slip cover.

 

It is a new publication, very heavy book... maybe is the same book as "Kano Natsuo Meihin-shu". In that case forgive me.