Katateuchi with a funny heart habaki

[AntiquarianCat]

Would you think signing with a made up title might be akin to how much of the French nobility who didn’t hold titles would just up and award themselves their own courtesy titles? So long as they didn’t steal protected titles the crown turned a blind eye to it.

[Geraint]

Dear Juan.

 

While I am not familiar with the pecadilloes of the French aristocracy I think the short answer to your question is no.  

 

There is an excellent description of the process of awarding such titles here, https://markussesko.com/2013/02/19/how-honorary-titles-were-conferred/  

 

All the best.

[AntiquarianCat]

Thanks again for all the help everyone, I've got only one more question: I dug up the torokusho and export paperwork and it turns out the nagasa is in fact... 60.6cm: right at the boundary. Both the torokusho and export papers explicitly classify it as a Katana (刀) and all wakizashi I've imported always got わきざし or 脇差; also, even this huge 59.6cm wakizashi still gets classified a wakizashi in torokusho and other papers. Would it be right to assume then that by Japanese standards this is supposed to be a long sword?

Thanks again

[Bugyotsuji]

Ass. U. Me.

Never assume anything is the safer way to go here, Juan. There is confusion at the edges when it comes to things historical. The way the modern prefectural education authority rules on katana/wakizashi relies on a different legal basis than how they were once originally conceived. 

[AntiquarianCat]

I guess a better way to put my question is if it is still proper to call it a katana? I think the trend seems to hold up with NBTHK papers: this one at 60.6cm got katana, while this one 60.0cm did not. I understand two swords shortened to 60.8 or 60.4 are basically the same thing, so it's a dumb game I'm playing, but I am interested about the proper terminology with borderline cases like this.

[Shugyosha]

It's a katana, for me anyway. 60.6cm = 2 shaku and the rule seems to be inclusive rather than exclusive for those on the limit i.e. it doesn't need to be 60.7cm to be considered a long sword. Aoi Art is certainly a little flexible in their interpretation and blades shorter than yours have been described as "katana" - as someone pointed out recently, if a dealer is buying they're wakizashi but katana when they're selling.

[Brian]

Katana.

[WulinRuilong]

On 2/18/2022 at 10:41 PM, AntiquarianCat said:

Would you think signing with a made up title might be akin to how much of the French nobility who didn’t hold titles would just up and award themselves their own courtesy titles? So long as they didn’t steal protected titles the crown turned a blind eye to it.

It depends on situation. In sengoku period many swordsmiths made up their own courtesy titles(For example, Osafune Sukesada school). But this was rare in the Edo period.

[SteveM]

14 hours ago, WulinRuilong said:

In sengoku period many swordsmiths made up their own courtesy titles

 

Would you have some more information on this? I'd be keen to dig a bit deeper, as it seems unlikely that smiths would grant themselves titles. 

 

To clarify, I know that some titles were granted because the smiths themselves applied to the authorities to receive a title. But I haven't heard of anyone making up a title, and I haven't found anything in Japanese to suggest this sort of thing was commonplace. 

[WulinRuilong]

1 hour ago, SteveM said:

 

Would you have some more information on this? I'd be keen to dig a bit deeper, as it seems unlikely that smiths would grant themselves titles. 

This is normal in Sengoku period, especially in Osafune school.

For example,

Bizen Osafune-jū Sahyōe no Jō Kagemitsu備前国長船住左兵衛尉景光  claim to be Sahyōe no Jō左兵衛尉

Bishū Osafune-jū Uemon no Jō Yasumitsu備州長船住右衛門尉康光 claim to be Uemon no Jō右衛門尉

Bizen koku jyu Osafune Yosouzaemon no jo Sukesada備前国住長船与三左衛門尉祐定 claim to be Zaemon no jo左衛門尉

Bizen koku jyu Osafune Sakyosin Munemitsu備前国住長船左京進宗光 claim to be Sakyosin左京進

 

In fact, only a few titles were officially recognized by the imperial court such as Izumi no kami Kanesada‘s和泉守兼定 title Izumi no kami和泉守

This was a popular behavior at that time so many people (not only swordsmith) like to grant themselves titles. So here is a mirror with a signature "Higo no Kami肥後守"

[SteveM]

I think in those cases, they are examples of where Official Names (官名) were being used as first names, rather than the swordsmith appropriating a title. In other words, it wasn't that Kagemitsu was taking and claiming the title of Sahyōe for himself, rather that was his actual name. This from Markus Sesko:

 

By the Muromachi period, many of the earlier kyôkan titles had been adopted to be used in first names, not only among swordsmiths of course. That means palace guard titles like „saemon no jô“ (左衛門尉), „uemon no jô“ (右衛門尉) or „hyôe no jô“ (兵衛尉) were now used as part of the first name by adding it either to the so-called „haikô“ (輩行) or the clan name like „Minamoto“ (源, also read as „Gen“) and „Taira“ (平, also read as „Hei“ or „Hyô“). The haikô by the way was the system to call sons according to the order they were born, i.e. „Tarô“ (太郎) for the first-born son, „Jirô“ (次郎) for the second son, „Saburô“ (三郎) for the third son and so on. Thus people frequently named their sons on the basis of combinations like „Tarôzaemon“ (太郎左衛門) or „Genbei“ (源兵衛), occasionally also with the suffix „jô“, for example the swordsmiths Jirôzaemon no Jô Katsumitsu (次郎左衛門尉勝光) or Gorôzaemon no Jô Katsumitsu (五郎左衛門尉清光). So these names like this were actually no granted honorary titles but earlier honorary titles used as part of a first name.

 

https://markussesko.com/2013/06/18/mondo-no-sho-and-shume-no-kami/

 

I mention this not to be pedantic (well, not overly pedantic) but rather to get the OP back on the rails, and not to think of Mino-no-kami as being something that an obscure swordsmith dreamed up for himself. I think "Mino-no-kami" is definitely a title that would have to be officially sanctioned.  

 

 

[WulinRuilong]

10 hours ago, SteveM said:

I think in those cases, they are examples of where Official Names (官名) were being used as first names, rather than the swordsmith appropriating a title. In other words, it wasn't that Kagemitsu was taking and claiming the title of Sahyōe for himself, rather that was his actual name. This from Markus Sesko:

 

By the Muromachi period, many of the earlier kyôkan titles had been adopted to be used in first names, not only among swordsmiths of course. That means palace guard titles like „saemon no jô“ (左衛門尉), „uemon no jô“ (右衛門尉) or „hyôe no jô“ (兵衛尉) were now used as part of the first name by adding it either to the so-called „haikô“ (輩行) or the clan name like „Minamoto“ (源, also read as „Gen“) and „Taira“ (平, also read as „Hei“ or „Hyô“). The haikô by the way was the system to call sons according to the order they were born, i.e. „Tarô“ (太郎) for the first-born son, „Jirô“ (次郎) for the second son, „Saburô“ (三郎) for the third son and so on. Thus people frequently named their sons on the basis of combinations like „Tarôzaemon“ (太郎左衛門) or „Genbei“ (源兵衛), occasionally also with the suffix „jô“, for example the swordsmiths Jirôzaemon no Jô Katsumitsu (次郎左衛門尉勝光) or Gorôzaemon no Jô Katsumitsu (五郎左衛門尉清光). So these names like this were actually no granted honorary titles but earlier honorary titles used as part of a first name.

 

https://markussesko.com/2013/06/18/mondo-no-sho-and-shume-no-kami/

 

I mention this not to be pedantic (well, not overly pedantic) but rather to get the OP back on the rails, and not to think of Mino-no-kami as being something that an obscure swordsmith dreamed up for himself. I think "Mino-no-kami" is definitely a title that would have to be officially sanctioned.  

 

 

Miyamoto Musashi(宮本武藏), I guess you heard this name. Another of his name is Shinmen Musashi no Kami Fujiwara no Harunobu(新免武蔵守藤原玄信), actually he claims to be Musashi no Kami(武藏守).

By the Muromachi period and Sengoku period, many people granted themself honorary titles without permission of imperial court. When the legitimacy of their title is officially questioned, they can easily claim it as a part of their first name and avoid punishment.

So, so called Official Names (官名) is just a tricky that allows them to claim a title that doesn't really belong to them while avoiding legal problems.

Below links are explanation why Official Names actually are self-proclaimed honorary titles 

仮名 (通称) - Wikipedia

百官名 - Wikipedia

Also, these self-proclaimed honorary titles were officially banned by the government during the Meiji era.

 

[SteveM]

OK - we're edging closer towards the rabbit hole, as often happens on the internet. We're going from a statement of "Many swordsmiths made up their own courtesy titles" to Miyamoto Musashi. Would you agree that it is highly, highly unlikely that a swordsmith would write the name "Mino-no-kami" on a sword, unless that swordsmith were granted permission to use the title "Mino-no-kami"? 

 

The discussion of Miyamoto Musashi is a side diversion into a rabbit hole, but Miyamoto didn't claim to be Musashi-no-kami, it was the professional title he acquired after the death of his father. Or, let me put it this way: he was able to claim the title because he had some plausible connection to the title (and not because it was a random courtesy name that he made up). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jussi Ekholm]

I am quoting Markus and his research on smiths that have acquired the title Mino no Kami.

 

Quote

Mino no Kami (美濃守)
Jumyō (寿命), Kanbun (寛文, 1661-1673), Mino
Masanaga (正命), Kanbun (寛文, 1661-1673), Mino
Masatsune (政常), 3rd gen., Kan´ei (寛永, 1624-1644), Owari
Masatsune (政常), 4th gen., Kanbun (寛文, 1661-1673), Owari
Morimitsu (盛光), active period unknown (shintō), Sanuki
Morishige (盛重), Enpō (延宝, 1673-1681), Owari
Morishige (盛重), Jōkyō (貞享, 1684-1688), Settsu
Sukeharu (祐春), Enpō (延宝, 1673-1681), Settsu
Sukeshige (祐重), Enpō (延宝, 1673-1681), Kii
Toshinori (寿格), Kansei (寛政, 1789-1801), Inaba/Edo

 

Is anyone able to find a reference signature of Kanesada with this title?

[WulinRuilong]

2 hours ago, SteveM said:

OK - we're edging closer towards the rabbit hole, as often happens on the internet. We're going from a statement of "Many swordsmiths made up their own courtesy titles" to Miyamoto Musashi. Would you agree that it is highly, highly unlikely that a swordsmith would write the name "Mino-no-kami" on a sword, unless that swordsmith were granted permission to use the title "Mino-no-kami"? 

 

The discussion of Miyamoto Musashi is a side diversion into a rabbit hole, but Miyamoto didn't claim to be Musashi-no-kami, it was the professional title he acquired after the death of his father. Or, let me put it this way: he was able to claim the title because he had some plausible connection to the title (and not because it was a random courtesy name that he made up). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My answers：

1. A swordsmith is likely to write a courtesy title without permission on a sword in Muromachi period and Sengoku period. But it is less likely to do so in Edo period.

2. The early history of Kanesada兼定 school is a mystery. The traditional view is that the Kanesada兼定 had three generations before Edo period, but this view(and the whole genealogy of Kanesada) has been challenged by a number of historians. There is now evidence that other swordsmiths(別人兼定) who used this signature Kanesada兼定 have not been recorded.

See below articles: 

http://www.nihonto-club.net/kantei/cool_5/kaisetsu5_6.html

http://www.nbthk-gf.or.jp/kanesadasyokimei/kanesadasyokimei.html

3. Miyamoto Musashi claim to be Shinmen Musashi no Kami Fujiwara no Harunobu(新免武蔵守藤原玄信) in his book The Book of Five Rings五輪書，without permission. Someone claim to be a courtesy title without permission called 自官 in Japanese.

4. As I know, Miyamoto Musashi's father Shinmen Munisai 新免無二斎 didn't use the title Musashi no Kami武蔵守. So, I don't see Miyamoto Musashi has any connection to the title.

 

[SteveM]

Hello Yanchen,

 

For #3 and #4, I refer you to the Musashi research site below 

source: http://musasi.siritai.net/ref/t01.html#n04

 

In particular, this part;

 

　このとき、職人としての武芸者の家職ということに留意すれば、その職名も相続するわけだから、武蔵の「新免武蔵守」という職名も、無二の「十手の家」の職名だったようである。
...At this time, keeping in mind the family business was "swordsman", the business name was also inherited, and therefore the business name of "Shinmen Musashi-no-Kami" was apparently also the business name of Muni the "Jutte Master" (nb. Musashi's father)

 

But also want to point your attention to this bit

 

周知の如く武蔵が名のった職名は、『五輪書』では「武蔵守」である。これについて、武蔵は不当にも大名が名のる「武蔵守」を僭称したとの愚かな錯誤を申し立てる論者が後を絶たないが、それは無知によるものである。「武蔵守」は職名の一つであり、職人ならこれを名のったのは、上記の「○○掾」の例と同儀である。

 

As is well-known, at the time of the Book of Five Rings, Musashi's working name was "Musashi-no-Kami". Regarding this, there is no end to the debaters who try to make the foolish, mistaken claim that Musashi was pretending to be like a Daimyō who calls himself "Lord of Musashi", but this is a view borne from ignorance. "Lord of Musashi" was a working name, and using this name was the same as the working name of "XX-no-Jō" as mentioned above. 
 

And, the Book of Five Rings was written well into the Edo period (1640), which, by reference to your point #1, should be an unlikely time for people to make up titles.

 

[WulinRuilong]

8 hours ago, SteveM said:

 

　このとき、職人としての武芸者の家職ということに留意すれば、その職名も相続するわけだから、武蔵の「新免武蔵守」という職名も、無二の「十手の家」の職名だったようである。

I read this article, but this statement has no evidence.

I think this is an incorrect interpretation of the inscription（父新免号無二為十手之家武蔵受家業朝鑚暮研）

父新免号無二為十手之家武蔵受家業朝鑚暮研= His father Shinmen Muni is a Master of Jutte(十手)，Miyamoto Musashi learned the skill of Jitte and practiced every day. 

There is nothing related to the family business or business name. In fact, the author misunderstood the words（十手之家） as swordsman family. The correct translation of 十手之家 should be Master of Jutte.

 

Also, there is another article says one record show that Musashi's father is 宮本無二之助 who claimed to be Musashi-no-Kami. But according to this record the title Musashi-no-Kami is only used in a few members of the Jutte school, so it is not a family business name, and it is contradicting other records.(Well, I read all articles on that website. Some authors claim that Shinmen Musashi no Kami is the business name of the Shinmen Muni's family, but they fail to provide directly evidence. This is the only record says 宮本無二之助 also known as Musashi-no-Kami武蔵守)

 

In sum, if you believe that the title Musashi-no-Kami is a family business name (actually this is also a kind of self-proclaimed courtesy title) which is also used by Musashi's father. Then you have to assume that 宮本無二之助 and 新免無二 are same person. If so, you have to recognize a lot of conflicting records (So it is very unlikely to be true). And even Musashi and his father both used the title Musashi no Kami as business name, it still a proclaimed courtesy title since it is not recognized by the Imperial court.

 

Also, there is no clear line between later Sengoku period and early Edo period. Musashi was born on later Sengoku period, so he still keeps old tradition of claiming a proclaimed courtesy title.

 

Anyway, since you already noticed that people in Sengoku period do use some courtesy title like XXXX no Kami as their business/office name without permission, you should aware the courtesy titles like XXX no Kami on the sword don't have to be an official granted courtesy title.

 

[hi-revr]

After searching for some time and being really new to all this................I would like to ask a question that seems distantly related to this discusssion.

I know the smith is Sukenobu, the last two Kanji.  I've seen different translations for Noshu Ju but none convince me they are accurate.  

What is the literal translation of each Kanji in No Shu Ju   ?? 

What is the generally accepted English translation  ??

[SteveM]

濃州住 is "resident of Nōshū" or "from Nōshū".

 

Nōshū itself is just the name of a province. Actually it is a contraction of a longer name Mino-shū or Mino-no-kuni. There is no definitive consensus on how this name was derived. Could be a corruption of Mino (三野) which means three fields, or could be a corruption of Mano (真野) "true field". Anyway, its the classical name for the area around Gifu Prefecture.

 

濃 (Nō) by itself means thick, dense*

州 (shū) means state, province. In the late 1800s Japan underwent political transformation, and each province took on a new name, and Japan gave up using this kanji 州, and started using 県 which we translated as "prefecture".

住 (jū) means resident of, or living in, or coming from. I think for most WW2 swords it signifies the sword was made in the traditional sword-producing region of Seki in the former province of Mino. Of course many Seki smiths were indeed from the region, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of these smiths were actually born in other prefectures. 

 

Note Nōshū is just a location name. It needn't be translated one-by-one. It works as a two-kanji set. 

 

 

 

[hi-revr]

Thank you for the detailed explanation.  There is much to learn not only about the blades but the culture and history.  Each time I attempt to research a word or other piece of this puzzle I discover 10 more things to look at.  I am grateful so many before have contributed so much.   

[IanB]

What a treat this thread has been. It raises several points that are worth a comment. Firstly, we really do get our proverbial pants in a twist over the length of blades. A couple of years ago I bought a rather fine daisho, both blades of which are ubu and unsigned. The nagasa of the daito is slightly less that 60cm long, which may be the reason why I was the only bidder. After musing on various reasons for the blade being less than the expected 2 shaku, the simple answer, and the obvious reason (ascertained by Piers), was that it was made for someone of small stature. 

As to the names of smiths. I would refer readers to the exhaustive chapter on the subject in Koop and Inada's 'Japanese names and how to read them'. Smiths signed their blades with a nanori - a name with similarities to a Western  'nom de plume' and the name by which a person was known to the outside world. However, the construction of nanori used a somewhat limited set of kanji with the inevitable high duplication rate. This situation was made worse by the tendency of some groups to incorporate the same kanji in their nanori, either because individuals had been granted the use of that kanji by a superior or because it had become traditional within the group [c.f. the use of 'MUNE' among the Myochin armourers]. Since 'family names' were forbidden to such lowly creatures as swordsmiths and other craftsmen, the inclusion of an address was a way by which an individual could further identify themselves. [My own surname which was the cause of much ribald amusement and inventive variations when I was at school) simply indicated that a distant ancestor lived in or near a lower field within their locality. Similarly, rather than rely on the address, the addition of a zokumio, or personal name by which they were known to family and intimates, was an alternative way of narrowing down a person's identity.

Ian Bottomley

. 

[mike76us]

i have one with this same habaki i think the heart means you are not gonna back down from anyone that you will strike in a flash 

[ROKUJURO]

Michael,

this symbol is not a heart. It is called INOME, and it is shown upside-down compared with our heart symbol. The literal meaning of INOME (猪目) is " wild boar's eye". It refers to the "never twitching wild boar's eye"  which is thought to be a sign of bravery and determination.