Katateuchi with a funny heart habaki

[AntiquarianCat]

Hello again everyone,

I know this blade is no treasure - it being a cheap sengoku study piece I grabbed a couple years ago - but the habaki made it pretty fitting for this occasion, so I hope you will forgive it. Also, I'd like to see if my Kantei skills are getting better so here goes: sugata is stereotypic late Muromachi, short (barely at 2 shaku) not very tapered and saki-sori so its a katateuchi; itame with some masame (mostly in shinogi) and heavy amounts of ji-nie, and what looks like a nie togari-gunome hamon. That makes me think I'm looking at a sue-seki or some other sengoku mino blade, Kazu-Uchi mono probably. Would this be a correct assumption?

Also it seems to be signed by some "kanesada" but the signature doesn't match any examples so I got it under the presumption it was gimei. Would that be correct?

Thanks again everyone

[Alex A]

You assume correct for Seki, file marks correct too

 

What length is the blade?

[AntiquarianCat]

60.7cm, the export papers (which I left in a separate residence and can’t access) put it as a katana but my understanding is a couple mm shorter and it would be a wakizashi. 

[Bazza]

Well, I've heard it said that to a dealer if buying it is a wakizashi, if selling a katana!!!  The point about it is, I believe, that in their day of the 16th century they were considered katana and should still be so today, IMHO.

 

BaZZa.

[Alex A]

Katana, looks to be suriage

[Alex A]

Difficult judging from images

 

There is a thread somewhere with measurements of longer blades made for single hand use, if thats what you think it is, in hand .

[Alex A]

Found it, by Jussi

 

I think modern classification is sometimes too strict when it comes to "borderline" things, as I don't believe it would have been a big deal back in the day if your sword is 59 cm or 61 cm. I picked 10 swords from Kantei-Zenshu that were listed being used in katate-uchi style by NBTHK. Here are the blade lengths, and 3 of them are wakizashi but the few cms wouldn't have mattered back then.

 

66,8, 66,3, 64,8, 64,3, 62,3, 61,8, 60,6, 58,3, 56,5, 53,3. Here are portions of the description of swords that are 56,5 cm and 53,3 cm.

 

[AntiquarianCat]

Interesting, do you think the lower mekugi ana is the original? Or would more shortening than I thought be possible?

 

Thanks a lot for the link. Assuming it lost a couple of inches it looks like it would have been on the longer end of that range.

[WulinRuilong]

How could you know this is a Sengoku period blade? It looks like an Early Edo period blade for me.

[WulinRuilong]

In my view this is an Early Edo period wakizashi(Shinto) made by Mino no Kami Kanesada(美濃守兼定)

I think this smith, Mino no Kami Kanesada(美濃守兼定), is just a random smith who use same name with famous Kanesada by coincidence, because no one in the famous Kanesada family has the title Mino no Kami(美濃守). So it cannot be a gimei.

[Shugyosha]

Hi Yanchen,

I think that there are two choices here, either the smith awarded a false title to themselves and signed that way or that someone else got creative and added a completely false signature to a blade. I think that either way the blade would fail shinsa unless the signature were removed.

 

I think it's difficult to draw a conclusion as to age of the blade based on sugata alone as the suriage and perhaps some re-shaping work at the kissaki (not much turn back on the boshi) do give it the appearance of a kanbun style sugata. The hamon is fairly typical for late muromachi mino work and so is the hada where the shintetsu isn't showing (mokume with some nagare), so I don't think that that is a bad call.

 

For me, I don't think that it was made to be used as a katate uchi because the original nakago jiri isn't there - the squared off nakago jiri suggests that it is suriage, maybe o suriage, so I feel it was a katana that someone cut down to this size. With katate uchi there is often a second mekugi ana because the tang has been extended by means of machi okuri so that it could take a longer handle for two handed use after the fashion for one handed fighting changed. The filled mekugi ana was perhaps put in when the (for me, false) signature was done to give the appearance of age as it would be the upper mekugi ana that was used in a re-purposed katate uchi.

[Alex A]

The blade looks typical Sue-Seki.

[WulinRuilong]

24 minutes ago, Shugyosha said:

Hi Yanchen,

I think that there are two choices here, either the smith awarded a false title to themselves and signed that way or that someone else got creative and added a completely false signature to a blade. I think that either way the blade would fail shinsa unless the signature were removed.

 

I think it's difficult to draw a conclusion as to age of the blade based on sugata alone as the suriage and perhaps some re-shaping work at the kissaki (not much turn back on the boshi) do give it the appearance of a kanbun style sugata. The hamon is fairly typical for late muromachi mino work and so is the hada where the shintetsu isn't showing (mokume with some nagare), so I don't think that that is a bad call.

 

For me, I don't think that it was made to be used as a katate uchi because the original nakago jiri isn't there - the squared off nakago jiri suggests that it is suriage, maybe o suriage, so I feel it was a katana that someone cut down to this size. With katate uchi there is often a second mekugi ana because the tang has been extended by means of machi okuri so that it could take a longer handle for two handed use after the fashion for one handed fighting changed. The filled mekugi ana was perhaps put in when the (for me, false) signature was done to give the appearance of age as it would be the upper mekugi ana that was used in a re-purposed katate uchi.

Hi Shugyosha,

I see no reason to assume the title or signature is false.

Title is granted by Daimyo, Shogun or Imperial court, it's unlikely the smith makes up a title himself. Also, there's no reason for someone making a gimei to make up a title that doesn't belong to the smith.

[Shugyosha]

Hi Yanchen,

There's an article here on how swordsmiths received their titles.

 

https://markussesko.com/2013/02/19/how-honorary-titles-were-conferred/

 

Yes it is unlikely that a smith would make up a title, but less so that someone faking a signature was ignorant of the listing of smiths and their titles or relying on the buyer's ignorance of that listing and thinking that "Mino no kami" and a name associated with Mino swordsmiths added value to a Mino blade in the eyes of someone who didn't know better. The true answer of course is that we'll never know, but whatever the reason was, my view is that the false title would lead to a failure at shinsa.

[WulinRuilong]

16 minutes ago, Shugyosha said:

Hi Yanchen,

There's an article here on how swordsmiths received their titles.

 

https://markussesko.com/2013/02/19/how-honorary-titles-were-conferred/

 

Yes it is unlikely that a smith would make up a title, but less so that someone faking a signature was ignorant of the listing of smiths and their titles or relying on the buyer's ignorance of that listing and thinking that "Mino no kami" and a name associated with Mino swordsmiths added value to a Mino blade in the eyes of someone who didn't know better. The true answer of course is that we'll never know, but whatever the reason was, my view is that the false title would lead to a failure at shinsa.

In Japan,  this is a common sense that an imperial court's title is unrelated to people's place of residence unless he is a Daimyo（For example, Izumi no kami kanesada cannot be associated with the place Izumi, and Tango no Kami Kanemichi also cannot be associated with the place Tango）. So, a title "Mino no kami" cannot be related to any Mino swordsmith, and it is impossible to add any value.

In my view, the only reasonable explanation is that there was indeed a smith with this name Mino no Kami Kanesada(美濃守兼定) in history, but he is not related to the famous Kanesada of Mino, just use the same name by coincidence.

[WulinRuilong]

1 hour ago, Shugyosha said:

Hi Yanchen,

There's an article here on how swordsmiths received their titles.

 

https://markussesko.com/2013/02/19/how-honorary-titles-were-conferred/

 

Yes it is unlikely that a smith would make up a title, but less so that someone faking a signature was ignorant of the listing of smiths and their titles or relying on the buyer's ignorance of that listing and thinking that "Mino no kami" and a name associated with Mino swordsmiths added value to a Mino blade in the eyes of someone who didn't know better. The true answer of course is that we'll never know, but whatever the reason was, my view is that the false title would lead to a failure at shinsa.

Also I need to point out that it is normal for completely unrelated smiths to use the same name by coincidence. I can give many examples：Osafune Kiyomitsu（長船清光），Kashuu Kiyomitsu（加州清光）and Harimadaijou Fujiwara Kiyomitsu（播磨大掾藤原清光）， they have the same name  Kiyomitsu but are smiths from different schools. 

[WulinRuilong]

5 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

 

This makes no sense at all, the title is awarded after having resided & working in the province. In some special cases the title could be awarded due to great actions or services to the region. Smiths weren't using some intricate Cayman Islands shell company system to make swords on Sado while signing Izumi No Kami.  

No, this is just an honorary title so the name itself has no real meaning. For example, Syume no Kami Ippei Yasuyo（主馬首一平安代）, his title Syume no Kami(主馬首)is a position which is responsible for raising horses. Ippei Yasuyo was granted this title doesn't mean he raised horses for the imperial court.

[ROKUJURO]

6 hours ago, AntiquarianCat said:

60.7cm, the export papers (which I left in a separate residence and can’t access) put it as a katana but my understanding is a couple mm shorter and it would be a wakizashi. 

Juan,

you are correct. One SHAKU is 30,3 cm, and when a sword is sold or handled in our days, it is a good idea to respect the actual denominations, independent of what the purpose or use it had in the olden days. So a TANTO is up to one SHAKU long, a WAKIZASHI has a length between one and two SHAKU, and TACHI and KATANA have more than two SHAKU.

Selling or buying a blade with a few millimeters off the mark may sometimes mean a remarkable price difference!

The "funny heart" HABAKI you mention in the title of your post is a standard symbol of the brave and fearless SAMURAI. It is called INOME, the 'never-twitching eye of the wild boar'   (https://www.mandarinmansion.com/glossary/inome)

[Shugyosha]

1 hour ago, WulinRuilong said:

In Japan,  this is a common sense that an imperial court's title is unrelated to people's place of residence unless he is a Daimyo（For example, Izumi no kami kanesada cannot be associated with the place Izumi, and Tango no Kami Kanemichi also cannot be associated with the place Tango）. So, a title "Mino no kami" cannot be related to any Mino swordsmith, and it is impossible to add any value.

In my view, the only reasonable explanation is that there was indeed a smith with this name Mino no Kami Kanesada(美濃守兼定) in history, but he is not related to the famous Kanesada of Mino, just use the same name by coincidence.

 

https://markussesko.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/nihontocompendium-e1.pdf

 

Have a look through this document where there is a section listing the titles awarded to smiths, their work periods and their place of work. Some smiths are awarded titles linked to their place of work. With Nihonto, once you start stating any rule or idea as being an absolute, then you will quickly find someone who can show you something different.

[WulinRuilong]

7 minutes ago, Shugyosha said:

 

https://markussesko.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/nihontocompendium-e1.pdf

 

Have a look through this document where there is a section listing the titles awarded to smiths, their work periods and their place of work. Some smiths are awarded titles linked to their place of work. With Nihonto, once you start stating any rule or idea as being an absolute, then you will quickly find someone who can show you something different.

If you carefully researched these titles, you would find that most titles have nothing to do with the smith's life experience. Even if you can find a connection in some people, it's just a coincidence.

[Shugyosha]

Mmmm...

 

So one minute you are saying that no smith is awarded a title relevant to his place of work because of some "common sense" idea that existed in Japan at the time. Then when you are shown examples of how your statement is incorrect, that is simply coincidence?

 

Interesting...

[noneed2hate]

5 hours ago, WulinRuilong said:

In my view this is an Early Edo period wakizashi(Shinto) made by Mino no Kami Kanesada(美濃守兼定)

I think this smith, Mino no Kami Kanesada(美濃守兼定), is just a random smith who use same name with famous Kanesada by coincidence, because no one in the famous Kanesada family has the title Mino no Kami(美濃守). So it cannot be a gimei.

If a random smith uses the name of another smith on a sword that was not produced by the smith named, I think that would qualify as gimei (not saying concretely that is the case for this particular blade, just generally speaking)  would it not? 

It does beg the question why it was signed with Mino as opposed to Noshu (i.e. if Gimei, was the individual who put the signature confused between the 2 or was there high tolerance on liberties taken with choosing between the 2), they are one in the same according to references Mino (美濃 = Nōshū 濃州) and from what I can tell in my books is that Kanesada (depends on which as there are many) had the honorary of Noshu-ju (at least in part) among a few generations.

To list a few from Seskos books:
Kanesada 2nd Generation, Eisho 1504-1521 - Noshu seki-ju Kanesada saku (signature does not compare well to his given example in the book) 
Kanesada 3rd Generation, Tenbun 1532-1555 - Noshu seki-ju Kanesada saku (signature does not compare well to his given example in the book) 
Kanesada (student of 2nd, assistant of 3rd Gen), Koji 1555-1558  Noshu seki-ju Kanesada
Kanesada (son of 3rd Generation), Tensho 1573-1592, Noshu-ju Kanesada


Thanks for sharing pictures and observations about your sword, Juan! The Habaki is certainly a good fit for today. 

[Bruce Pennington]

I have another habaki on file with a similar design concept (don't recall the source):

 

Yours is only the 2nd I've recorded.

[WulinRuilong]

4 hours ago, noneed2hate said:

If a random smith uses the name of another smith on a sword that was not produced by the smith named, I think that would qualify as gimei (not saying concretely that is the case for this particular blade, just generally speaking)  would it not? 

It does beg the question why it was signed with Mino as opposed to Noshu (i.e. if Gimei, was the individual who put the signature confused between the 2 or was there high tolerance on liberties taken with choosing between the 2), they are one in the same according to references Mino (美濃 = Nōshū 濃州) and from what I can tell in my books is that Kanesada (depends on which as there are many) had the honorary of Noshu-ju (at least in part) among a few generations.

As I said, Osafune Kiyomitsu（長船清光），Kashuu Kiyomitsu（加州清光）and Harimadaijou Fujiwara Kiyomitsu（播磨大掾藤原清光）， they have the same name  Kiyomitsu , but they are not gimei.

Since this smith, Mino no Kami Kanesada(美濃守兼定), has a different title with anyone in the famous Kanesada family line, the most likely explanation is that he is another person not related to this family. If he didn't claim he is one of the famous Kanesada, you can't call it gimei.

Also, Mino (美濃) , Nōshū (濃州) or Noshu-ju(美濃住) means xxx of Mino/Noshu, and Noshu seki-ju(濃州関住)means xxxof seki, Noshu, these words are not title!

But Mino no Kami(美濃守) is totally different, it means the Governor of Mino, which is an honorary title granted by Daimyo, Shogun or Imperial court. As Piers said, these honorary titles already lost their meaning.

[AntiquarianCat]

Wow, the plot certainly has thickened. Thank you so much for the excellent discussion everyone, it's certainly a lot of food for thought. That this might not have been a katateuchi, people possibly awarding themselves odd titles reminding me of how the second estate in the ancien regime made up most of their titles and got away with it so long as they didn't steal protected ones... and the Inome. Thank you for enlightening me about Inome, it's very interesting to know that what the occident might see as harmless funny heart was actually a fierce and bestial symbol to the samurai. I guess that shows symbols are not always universal.

[ROKUJURO]

Juan,

I forgot to mention that the Japanese use the INOME symbol upside-down to what we do when we use it as 'heart' symbol..

[ROKUJURO]

2 hours ago, WulinRuilong said:

As I said, Osafune Kiyomitsu（長船清光)，Kashuu Kiyomitsu（加州清光）and Harimadaijou Fujiwara Kiyomitsu（播磨大掾藤原清光)，they have the same name  Kiyomitsu , but they are not gimei.....

YANCHEN,

I have to confess that I don't understand what you mean. I am sure that there are blades signed with fake KIYOMITSU MEI, as with so many other smiths.

[WulinRuilong]

6 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

YANCHEN,

I have to confess that I don't understand what you mean. I am sure that there are blades signed with fake KIYOMITSU MEI, as with so many other smiths.

This is what I mean.

Different title + Same name =Different Smith, not gimei.

[DoTanuki yokai]

Wow you have found out that names are not unique? I know of more then 3 Christian here and I don’t think the ppl think we are the same person or that we have a connection in some way. Maybe  i still can’t get your point but I think someone with a province in his mei worked at that place when he made the sword. 

[Geraint]

Gentlemen.

 

I think we are making heavy weather of this.   As I understand Yanchen's point it is that Noshu ju or Seki ju mean the smith was working in that province while Mino no Kami is an honorary title and could be awarded to a smith working anywhere in Japan. 

 

A smith signing Mino no ju would not need any permission to so sign, one signing Mino no Kami would need permission.

 

As the sword we are discussing has the honorific Mino no Kami it is not pretending to be by one of the Seki Kanesada smiths at all.  As such it is not a gimei for any of the Mino Kanesada smiths.

 

All the best.