Can someone help identify this sword?

[Misconstrued]

Any help identifying this sword? 

 

-Jace

[Misconstrued]

Backstory: my friends grandfather picked this sword up during WW2 in Japan.

 

-Jace

[ChrisW]

In Japan? That would be very unusual since this looks to be a Model 1840 "Wristbreaker" Cavalry sword, which was made in the US before and commonly issued during the American Civil War.

If you look VERY closely at the ricasso (the part of the blade closest to the guard), you'll probably see a manufacturers mark. Either Ames, Horstman, Tiffany, Pettibone; if unmarked, then it is likely a European (most likely German) import model. The Japanese never manufactured blades like these, so if it was brought back from Japan, then that'd be quite a journey to go from here to Japan and then back again in the span of a century.

[Stephen]

Grandpa's love to tell stories, I know I do.

[Misconstrued]

Thank you for clarity it isn't Japanese! I thought it wasn't due to seeing others like this, but I'm not really sure with non-traditional swords. I think this is just another sword he owned and not the one he spoke of. If this is the sword he spoke of, then that's a whole story in itself!

 

-Jace

Edited February 7, 2022 by Misconstrued
Forgot name

[Misconstrued]

Is there a way to preserve it or restore it? I haven't heard of it being worth it to get it restored. But how would you go to preserve it?

[ChrisW]

Well, even though it is not Japanese and its not going to carry a ton of value, some basic things you can do would be to:

Gently soap and water it then dry it, wipe it down with some high grade pure alcohol (electronics grade is my go-to), then oil the blade with some kind of non-abrasive oil, that is a TON of red rust.

Store it in a place that is dry and out of sunlight.

Leave the actual restoration work to professionals! It won't likely be worth the money (as in you won't make money) but if you're passionate about it, you can spend the money to have a professional do it. I would check out some civil war item forums online and see as to the consensus as to who is their go-to.

[PNSSHOGUN]

With that amount of active rust....even after removal it's likely the steel underneath is badly pitted & corroded. Best to follow the advice from Chris to stop the active rust and keep it as a family relic.

[ChrisW]

  On 2/7/2022 at 4:16 AM, PNSSHOGUN said:

With that amount of active rust....even after removal it's likely the steel underneath is badly pitted & corroded. Best to follow the advice from Chris to stop the active rust and keep it as a family relic.

Expand  

Very true, but you'd be surprised how thick some of those Model 1840's can be! They aren't called "Old Wristbreaker" for nothing.

[wiktor69]

A rust converter based on phosphoric acid can be used on this blade. It will not be worse. Apply it with a brush and control the process.

Just don't use a power tool for the next polish. Just by hand and carefully.

Photo (https://zen.yandex.ru/media/armsandarmor)

 

[Dave R]

 I have found "Evaporust" to be an effective and safe de-ruster. The problem with the phosphoric acid based ones range from user safety to environmental damage via ruining the piece you are working on. I have had scarring from the old "Pink Jelly" that took years to disappear.

https://www.evapo-rust.com/

[Brian]

Good stuff on rusted tools etc.
BUT....careful. It will remove patina/bluing/any surface finish quick quick! You don't always want bare steel.

[Stegel]

At first glance, i immediately thought Type 8 NCO, then i noticed the back strap on the handle to be a bit odd, so checked Dawson's book.

There were actually 5 variations in the Type 8. This is actually NOT one of them, however, apparently the model 1860 was imported into Japan.

It Does look very similar to this, so let's not give up on Granpa too quickly just yet, these imported swords had Japanese 'acceptance' stamps on the ricasso, this one may have also.

Jace, please give the ricasso area a clean and see what may or may not be there.

As Chris said, this is the area where you would find makers marks etc.

 

This model was not copied by the Japanese, however, other very similar imports from Germany (Clemen and Jung) were copied and issued.

The models shown in Dawsons seem to only have one hanger on the scabbard, so not like the one Victor showed us.

Here's some info from Dawson's...

 

[Bruce Pennington]

I agree with Stegel on this.  Can we see the scabbard?  In the second photo, there is a shadow of it (or you're really excited about this sword!!!! HA!)

 

[Misconstrued]

This is the only photo I have as of now, but I'll get more later today! But it has 2 rings instead of 1.

 

 

[vajo]

Strange pictures to show something. 

 

[Misconstrued]

Apologies for the photo, it's a friend's and this was the only photo I had of the sheath as of now, I asked for more photos but I haven't quite gotten them yet.

-Jace

[Stephen]

  On 2/8/2022 at 12:32 PM, vajo said:

Strange pictures to show something. 

 

Expand  

I don't know Chris, it's kind of festive 😉

[Bruce Pennington]

Hey, looks like a typical Christmas display for a sword guy!  I like it!